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P1350, freeze frame, coils

4.6K views 32 replies 7 participants last post by  fanatichuman  
#1 · (Edited)
Hi all,

I get this sporadic P1350 misfire on cyl 5, and try to track it down. Last time I smoke tested everything checked out. Pre-cat O2s are about a year old, as well as the MAF (both from FCPeuro).

I attached the freeze frame from the P1350 error (see PDF).

Last days I checked my coils and spark plugs to see how they look, please let me know what you think based on the pics.

There's white greyish residue at the top of almost all the coils (not only the 5th), see pics. The greyish substance can be rubbed off more or less, and creeps out from both sides of the black band that's around each coil top. Around some of these greyish areas there's also some kind of rainbow colored discoloration, like when gas swims on water. See here multiple coils.

Edit: Are these the coils from the (ancient) recall that I just read about? Bremi manuf. date xx 2000.

910311

910312

910314

910317



There's also on 2 or 3 coils an oval shaped mark on the boot. Any idea if that's normal? (see red circle on boot).

910318


My coils are original, manufacture date: year 2000; about 250k miles.

My plugs are about 2y old and less than 20k miles. I know those are not the recommended plugs for the car, but from my understanding back then they should work just fine, and they seem(ed) to do!?. But let me know if you think my problem could come from those plugs. I don't have oil in the wells, not 100% sure where the oil on the threads comes from.
910313


910315

Cheers,
-fana
 

Attachments

#2 ·
Coils. Discoloration shouldn't bother you , it could be traces of break cleaner spraying/engine washing etc. Doesn't affect coils performance). Age itself shouldn't be a problem but of course it increases chances of fails.
Spark plugs. Oil on tread indicates condition of your valve stem seals. They aren't flexible anymore therefore do not seal properly and oil goes to cylinders trough them.
White residue on spark plug electrodes - minerals from oil additives package. It shows that you have your oil rings stuck and not removing oil from cylinder walls. There is oil consumption problem there, right?
Misfiring. Search for misfiring troubleshooting. That tread will give you comprehensive guide.
Meanwhile order cable for INPA diagnostic tool
 
#7 ·
Coils. Discoloration shouldn't bother you , it could be traces of break cleaner spraying/engine washing etc. Doesn't affect coils performance). Age itself shouldn't be a problem but of course it increases chances of fails.
Spark plugs. Oil on tread indicates condition of your valve stem seals. They aren't flexible anymore therefore do not seal properly and oil goes to cylinders trough them.
White residue on spark plug electrodes - minerals from oil additives package. It shows that you have your oil rings stuck and not removing oil from cylinder walls. There is oil consumption problem there, right?
Misfiring. Search for misfiring troubleshooting. That tread will give you comprehensive guide.
Meanwhile order cable for INPA diagnostic tool
Thanks Anticdubai,
Thanks for the info. I don't have an oil consumption problem though. I'll go through that thread, and I already have INPA set up.
cheers
-fana
 
#3 ·
I've been repairing cars since 1977 and BMWs since 1987 with a hiatus into military fighter jets in-between then.
I still have difficulty reading spark plugs. I know what's good and bad.

Oil on the threads is just that, nothing more. (Sorry) The threads are not part of the combustion chamber. Oil got onto the threads because the center goggles of the valve cover is leaking and upon removal, got onto/past the threads.

I'll have a look at the attached freeze frame at work, too difficult to on a phone.
Could have a limited lifespan and just wear out. The Mfr's aren't helping by placing them in a tight tube where heat shedding becomes problematic.
 
#6 ·
Don, not for a second I would question your expertise, and I doubt any of us here would ever reach level of your experience. Yet, you might find a sense in following:
oil on tread can come from spark plug well, in case gasket is bad, but you definitely can see engines with clean wells with no sight of oil but plug tread is still oily. That oil comes from chamber top, if seals are bad, oil goes there in small quantities, but enough to build up on a tread, where it pushed by pressure pulsation. It is little amount, very little, but as plug is in cylinder for long time, it usually enough to contaminate tread (It is also different oil comparing to oil from well. It is dark, it is burnt. Oil from well is much more like normal oil. Also, crush washer seals the well pretty effectively, so oil would come at tread only at the moment we unscrew plug, and that oil will be sort of fresh. As pressure in cylinder is much higher than vacuum created while filling, that would push oil from cylinder much more effectively than sucking it trough bad washer,) You could check if it is right or not next time your guys replace seals and plugs on someone's engine and then check tread at next service. It will be clean. Or, on old engine with seals never been replaced (most of our beloved cars have those), with fresh valve cover gasket, get new plugs and look at them in 10K. OIl.
White residue on electrode. Pretty clear sign that oil rings do not work the way they should. Minerals from additive package from oil burning in excessive way dragged in exhaust gases off the cylinder, and passing electrode (which is hottest place in chamber) settle in a form of thin whitish dust. Same one you see on O2 sensors and cats cells - change plugs and sensors , and if engine has significant oil consumption, you will find same stuff on them in 20K guaranteed. Not gonna happen with rebuilt engine with new rings, not in that scale.
 
#5 ·
Freeze capture seems somewhat normal. Although your form states "Not ready for inspection" all of the available monitoring for your car (Yes & YES) in your cars is set.
Not all OBD monitors (No & Yes) are applicable to the E46.

Your plugs. From what I can read on the photo & using the date code chart indicate:
M = Factory
6 = Last digit of year. Likely 2016. Could be 2006, but doubt it.
Z = December
5 = Day of month.

How many miles on those puppies?

The grayish residue: Either from the business end of the coil moving around; Not likely. Most likely due to higher than normal heat dissipation in that spot.
Was the misfire associated with one of the coils in question with the above?
 

Attachments

#8 ·
Thanks!

Was the misfire associated with one of the coils in question with the above?
The misfire was on 5, which would be this coil:
910353


Most likely due to higher than normal heat dissipation in that spot.
With the more than normal heat dissipation you mean a faulty coil?

I bought the plugs about 2 years ago from rockauto, so 15-20k miles. I hope the 6 indicates 2016, lol.
The no 5 plug looks exactly like the other ones, see pic with all plugs above.

Cheers,
-fana
 
#9 · (Edited)
My 2 cents. Discoloration is normal. Oil on threads 99% of the time is valve cover gasket leak (current or old leak) and upon removal, seeped onto the threads of the plugs. Its such a minute amount.

From what I understand about the coil recall, the only cars that were recalled had the coil style where you flip up a latch and pull out vs the ones that must be unbolted and a metal clip slid up. (Correct me if im wrong). These style coils are still used to this day on modern BMWs. 712-223 Bremi

Yours look to be the dated style, and because of that, im betting theyve never been rellaced before from factory.

Easy solution would be to call dealer and ask for info on recalls being fufilled on the car.

I know its a basic question, but have you tried swapping coils and seeing if the misfire follows?

Edit: further research shows it affected 9/02 cars and up. Your car was out of the recall.
 
#13 ·
I just read through the whole thread. I get all the discussion on the coils and sparkies for understanding and knowledge sharing.

Back to the original problem, the P1350 misfire code is generic in that it doesn’t point to any specific cause, such as coil, spark plug, injector, etc. In fact it being on just one cylinder can be either helpful or misguiding. Taking a methodical approach to eliminating causes makes sense. Checking if there is an engine-wide problem manifesting in just one cylinder is a good idea.
 
#15 ·
Ok, so, the early coil is actually a coil and a plug boot. I know they look unitized, like the later ones, but they're not.

The boot is flexible, and has a resistor in it, I seem to remember. It pulls off the coil.

And they're replaceable. So I'd suggest changing the boots. Because if they're like mine were, the contacts
are a mess, and the resistor inside is breaking down from the heat.

Do be careful- they usually want plugs with a removable cap, and the standard NGK plug ending in EQP no longer has
a removable cap.

I learnt this the expensive way.


hth,

t
 
#18 ·
Ok, so, the early coil is actually a coil and a plug boot. I know they look unitized, like the later ones, but they're not.

The boot is flexible, and has a resistor in it, I seem to remember. It pulls off the coil.

And they're replaceable. So I'd suggest changing the boots. Because if they're like mine were, the contacts
are a mess, and the resistor inside is breaking down from the heat.

Do be careful- they usually want plugs with a removable cap, and the standard NGK plug ending in EQP no longer has
a removable cap.

I learnt this the expensive way.


hth,

t
Thanks. I'm not sure what you mean with removable cap on the plug and that they (coil boots?) need that. Can you elaborate? The "standard one is QUP BMW BKR6EQUP Spark Plug - NGK 3199, or which one do you mean?
-fana
 
#26 · (Edited)
All the values look good in the logs and Post warm 55+ idle Diag Report.
Pre-cat O2 sensors were a bit slugglish though. Are they new?

There were no current trouble codes, so the freeze frame data was empty.
Next time it pops that P1350 code do another Diag Report so it captures the FF data and post a link here for review.

Did you replace all the coils?

Have you done compression or leakdown tests?
 
#27 ·
Yes new-ish, pre-cat o2s are a bit over a year old, BOSCHs.

Next time it pops that P1350 code do another Diag Report so it captures the FF data and post a link here for review.
Sure, but how would this be different from the last freezeframe(s) I posted?

Did you replace all the coils?
No, I did not replace any coils, I just switched coil 5 to pos. 1 (before the P1531 popped up).

Have you done compression or leakdown tests?
No, I did not. Btw, the car is only a bit rough on cold start, never had a problem during driving, also smooth at any stop light idle. Errors always pop up on cold start (but still sporadically).

Cheers-
fana
 
#28 · (Edited)
The FF data in the Diag Report linked in post #22 above is quite strange, so I am not sure it is accurate.
  • Both fuel status are 1, yet coolant temp is 185F
  • RPM value is 0
  • MAF value is 0
How does an engine misfire when it’s not turning? Heh heh...

Do the Diag Report while engine is still idling next time it pops the code. Then we can see the real FF values when it tripped.