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Greetings all!


TL;DR - came to shop with no reverse, replaced the drum ONLY, now has several codes and goes into limp after trying for 3rd gear. Also replaced a rectangular section sealing ring with silicon because my boss and the customer have less knowledge than money they're willing to spend. Cannot diagnose, need help!


Let me preface by saying that I'm not a BMW owner, I'm a mechanic with recent BMW woes. That being said, We have a 2000 323i here at the shop that has me pulling my hair out at this point. It came in with a complaint of no reverse. We dropped the pan and found pieces of the 'D' drum sitting in oil that looked like it came out of my Cummins. I recommended removing the trans, performing a full overhaul (all new bearings, seals, o-rings, clutch packs, the whole pizza box), and replacing the broken clutch drum. The customer didn't want to spend any money and the boss didn't want to let the job walk away so they settled on replacing just the broken drum and the four o-rings for the pistons that apply the clutches. Transmission came out without issue. After draining, I opened it up on the bench, removed the filter and set it aside to re-use (sigh....:facepalm:). Valve body came off all together, only removed the ~21 larger-head bolts. Removed the two plastic fluid passages (yellow pieces between VB and front pump) intact, as well as the spring-loaded metal piece and spring from the pump. Pulled the pump off and thoroughly cleaned everything as it came out. I swapped all the old parts from the old drum to the new (with new o-rings on the pistons) and started re-assembly. Everything was going fine until I get to the shaft that runs from the 'A' and 'E' clutch up into the torque converter. On this shaft, there are two rectangular section sealing rings, and one o-ring. I noticed that the foremost rectangular section ring (smaller diameter of the two) was torn and misshapen. This ring is only available as part of the master overhaul kit so again I recommend a full rebuild and am denied. Now, I'm not proud of this next part, and if the excuse "I just work here/do what I'm told" wasn't good enough for Göring, then it's probably not good enough for me either, but, we filled the groove with RTV silicone (high temp), and let 'er cure overnight. Now I'm sure many of you are immediately going to default to this being my problem, but hear me out first. Fast forward to trans re-installation, and fluid fill. We filled the trans through the 8mm hex plug on the left rear corner of the trans, just above the oil pan. Added fluid until it dripped out, started engine, shifted through all positions 4 times and then refilled again while running in park. Trans took a total of ~8/9 quarts, which sounds good to me because total capacity is 9.30qts, but you can never really completely empty the torque converter. When we test drive the car, it now has beautiful reverse. When we drive it down the highway, it shifts 1-2 no problem, then bangs HARD when it tries for 3rd (had all forward gears beforehand). CEL and transmission (!) icon come on and it goes into (i think) a limp mode where it seems to be stuck in 4th or 5th gear, max speed of ~15mph, engine revs all the way up, a la badly slipping clutch. Turn the car off and let it sit for ten minutes and everything is fine again...until 3rd gear. We pulled codes, cleared codes, reset adaptations, disconnected battery, all several times. The condition repeats itself every time.

Now...my first thought was the seal that we should've replaced, BUT, the codes suggest an electrical issue:
83 - EGS ECU internal fault (= P1893, P1894, P1895 i think)
59 - Stall monitering (??)
53 - Gear monitering 3, incorrect ratio (P0733?)
54 - Gear monitering 4, incorrect ratio (P0734?)
49 - Gear monitering (??)
Also have two codes in the ECU for an evap leak and a coolant/tstat issue.
Codes were pulled/cleared etc. with a Snap-On Modis. Also, clutch-brake application chart shows that A, B, C, D, low sprag, and G clutches are all used at least once between P, R, N, D-1, and D-2. E clutch does not engage until 4th and 5th gear. F clutch at 3rd, and for 4th and 5th. So maybe my problem has to do with F clutch? Since everything else seems to work until F clutch applies (or tries to). Now I don't have a fluid flow diagram for this tranny, but from everything I do have, it seems that the rectangular section ring that is now a home made silicon o-ring is separate enough from my problem that I should at least look elsewhere first? I guess what I really need to know is what two fluid passages does this sealing ring separate? If anyone has the exploded view handy, the piece in question is '71.020'.

Final notes, we have been searching and reading everything on the internet. This forum and bimmerfest have been extremely helpful, so we decided to post here after trying everything we could think of/was suggested to us. Hopefully somewhere out there is a ZF god that has actually read all of my ramblings and is about to drop some knowledge on me. Here's hoping! Many thanks to all who took the time to read this!! I'll be checking back and updating through the end of this fiasco.



Warning: PDF! ZF5HP19 spare parts catalog URL:
http://www.zf.com/media/media/document/corporate_2/downloads_1/usa/passenger_cars/5HP19.pdf_a_
 

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Whatever the problem is, it's just going to be another band aid. Replacing the reverse drum and reassembling the transmission with all the old seals and old trans filter? That's crazy.
Shifts hard in 3rd? Did you work on the accumulators?
Maybe some debris moved around and are causing the current issue.
The customer would've been better off with a used tranny.
Of course, it's easy for me to say that, since used transmissions are plentiful in Socal.
Good luck finding the problem!
 

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Never been into one of these transmissions, but is it possible that somehow the wiring was mixed up for 2 of the solenoids on the valve body?

Could be a mechanical issue, but an electrical issue may be as simple as wrong wiring connected to solenoids? Likely the 3 & 4 solenoid based upon the codes?

Sounds like you likely know your way around transmissions due to the pizza box comment!

Just a thought and if this is the case, should be an easy repair?
 

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Reason why I bought my E46 cheap is, it was in similar fiasco, guy attempted repair, did not work, ordered rebuilt ZF5HP19, put in, month later it failed and then he put the car on craigslist dirt cheap, I bought it, converted it into manual.

ZF5HP19 is junk
 

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Discussion Starter #5
Thanks for the replies everyone! The accumulator(s) are inside the valve body, which I did not open up. Took it off, set aside, reinstalled. That's not to say they are okay, I will certainly subscribe to the idea that opening everything up and not cleaning/rebuilding properly could have gotten some dirt or old 'D' drum pieces to move around and cause this issue. As far as the electrical connectors go, that's one thing I'm not worried about. The wire lengths are just so that you can't hook them up out of order. I am equally skeptical about the solenoids though, for the same reason that they were not removed or cleaned. The frustrating thing is that I do indeed know my way around transmissions. I have rebuilt many in the past with great success. On the lift next to me is a Pacifica with a blown trans that I'm in the middle of, and my feet are resting on a 4R100 out of an F450 dump. I enjoy the work because it's like a big puzzle and everyone else is afraid of it. That's why this is so frustrating! It should be a routine repair on a routine trans, and now I'm going crazy, haha. If it were my car, or at the very least, my shop, I would never have done the job like this, but what can you do. And a manual swap, although intriguing, isn't an option :)

My next move will be to hook up the Modis and individually activate all the solenoids to confirm they're working. Can't really think of much else to do at this point, but I'm not ready to admit defeat just yet. Thanks again for the replies. Will update!
 

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Discussion Starter #6
So with the Modis hooked up, I see that solenoid valve 1 is active up until 3rd gear, then is turned off. The car drives fine in M1 and M2, so I think I'm at least narrowing down the cause. Now, on the valve body, right next to shift solenoid 1, there is a T27 bolt. I did not touch this bolt during removal, as it is not one of the ones that holds the VB in. However, I distinctly remember during re-installation, that bolt was not tight. I figured that I had previously loosened it thinking it was a VB bolt, but now I am sure that is not the case. I had a diagram of the valve body bolts, and was very particular about it. I can't find any information on what this bolt is/does. Could it be some sort of adjustment for the solenoid valve; and now that I've tightened it, the valve is now locked in the 'on' position? A stuck 'on' #1 solenoid valve would give me the exact symptoms I have.

If the problem isn't here at the VB, I'm going to have to remove the trans again and disassemble down to the 'F' clutch. I would really hate to do that because my gut feeling is that the internals are fine.

Also, the fluid was noticeably darker, after only 20 minutes drive time on it.
 

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2003 330Ci. Oxford Green over Beige. 5-spd
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Very interesting thread! Just read the whole thing! Im kinda having the same problem(reverse out) + loud bang in d2. Noticed though when i put it in D normal it just drives normally as if second is fine. Any ideas?! Also did you ever solve the problem you had above?


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Forgot to mention i have a GM tranny not sure if that makes a ton difference or not.


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Check out the no-reverse thread on top of the page!
 

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Sounds like there is no modulation on the 3rd gear apply clutch. Did you have the valve body apart or did you just remove it as a unit? I'd bet there is a stuck ball in the valve body.


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same thing

I bought a 2002 325I recently . bought it to flip. pulled trans just replaced drum have same issue ... 1/2 shift normal bang for 3rd then cel & limp mode what did you ever come up with as fix for this issue?
Greetings all!


TL;DR - came to shop with no reverse, replaced the drum ONLY, now has several codes and goes into limp after trying for 3rd gear. Also replaced a rectangular section sealing ring with silicon because my boss and the customer have less knowledge than money they're willing to spend. Cannot diagnose, need help!


Let me preface by saying that I'm not a BMW owner, I'm a mechanic with recent BMW woes. That being said, We have a 2000 323i here at the shop that has me pulling my hair out at this point. It came in with a complaint of no reverse. We dropped the pan and found pieces of the 'D' drum sitting in oil that looked like it came out of my Cummins. I recommended removing the trans, performing a full overhaul (all new bearings, seals, o-rings, clutch packs, the whole pizza box), and replacing the broken clutch drum. The customer didn't want to spend any money and the boss didn't want to let the job walk away so they settled on replacing just the broken drum and the four o-rings for the pistons that apply the clutches. Transmission came out without issue. After draining, I opened it up on the bench, removed the filter and set it aside to re-use (sigh....:facepalm:). Valve body came off all together, only removed the ~21 larger-head bolts. Removed the two plastic fluid passages (yellow pieces between VB and front pump) intact, as well as the spring-loaded metal piece and spring from the pump. Pulled the pump off and thoroughly cleaned everything as it came out. I swapped all the old parts from the old drum to the new (with new o-rings on the pistons) and started re-assembly. Everything was going fine until I get to the shaft that runs from the 'A' and 'E' clutch up into the torque converter. On this shaft, there are two rectangular section sealing rings, and one o-ring. I noticed that the foremost rectangular section ring (smaller diameter of the two) was torn and misshapen. This ring is only available as part of the master overhaul kit so again I recommend a full rebuild and am denied. Now, I'm not proud of this next part, and if the excuse "I just work here/do what I'm told" wasn't good enough for Göring, then it's probably not good enough for me either, but, we filled the groove with RTV silicone (high temp), and let 'er cure overnight. Now I'm sure many of you are immediately going to default to this being my problem, but hear me out first. Fast forward to trans re-installation, and fluid fill. We filled the trans through the 8mm hex plug on the left rear corner of the trans, just above the oil pan. Added fluid until it dripped out, started engine, shifted through all positions 4 times and then refilled again while running in park. Trans took a total of ~8/9 quarts, which sounds good to me because total capacity is 9.30qts, but you can never really completely empty the torque converter. When we test drive the car, it now has beautiful reverse. When we drive it down the highway, it shifts 1-2 no problem, then bangs HARD when it tries for 3rd (had all forward gears beforehand). CEL and transmission (!) icon come on and it goes into (i think) a limp mode where it seems to be stuck in 4th or 5th gear, max speed of ~15mph, engine revs all the way up, a la badly slipping clutch. Turn the car off and let it sit for ten minutes and everything is fine again...until 3rd gear. We pulled codes, cleared codes, reset adaptations, disconnected battery, all several times. The condition repeats itself every time.

Now...my first thought was the seal that we should've replaced, BUT, the codes suggest an electrical issue:
83 - EGS ECU internal fault (= P1893, P1894, P1895 i think)
59 - Stall monitering (??)
53 - Gear monitering 3, incorrect ratio (P0733?)
54 - Gear monitering 4, incorrect ratio (P0734?)
49 - Gear monitering (??)
Also have two codes in the ECU for an evap leak and a coolant/tstat issue.
Codes were pulled/cleared etc. with a Snap-On Modis. Also, clutch-brake application chart shows that A, B, C, D, low sprag, and G clutches are all used at least once between P, R, N, D-1, and D-2. E clutch does not engage until 4th and 5th gear. F clutch at 3rd, and for 4th and 5th. So maybe my problem has to do with F clutch? Since everything else seems to work until F clutch applies (or tries to). Now I don't have a fluid flow diagram for this tranny, but from everything I do have, it seems that the rectangular section ring that is now a home made silicon o-ring is separate enough from my problem that I should at least look elsewhere first? I guess what I really need to know is what two fluid passages does this sealing ring separate? If anyone has the exploded view handy, the piece in question is '71.020'.

Final notes, we have been searching and reading everything on the internet. This forum and bimmerfest have been extremely helpful, so we decided to post here after trying everything we could think of/was suggested to us. Hopefully somewhere out there is a ZF god that has actually read all of my ramblings and is about to drop some knowledge on me. Here's hoping! Many thanks to all who took the time to read this!! I'll be checking back and updating through the end of this fiasco.



Warning: PDF! ZF5HP19 spare parts catalog URL:
http://www.zf.com/media/media/document/corporate_2/downloads_1/usa/passenger_cars/5HP19.pdf_a_
_nr_
 

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There is NO WAY the silicone applied in place of the proper seal ring will work. The seal ring seals the parts by the force of fluid pressure behind the seal ring forcing it out against the bore and against the side wall of the grove. Silicone sealant is not capable of providing a proper seal in this application. Consequently, the fluid leak that resulted will upset the fluid pressure balances and function of the transmission. The DTCs that where set are also a direct result of the missing seal ring.

The failure of management and the techs failure to refuse, by not obtaining the correct part, is basic incompetence in this case. The cost of re disassembling the trans and obtaining the correct part for installation plus the wasted labor time could have been avoided. All seals and gaskets must be replaced when reassembling a transmission, so the basic seal kit was required. Not an expense related option.
 
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