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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)

Power flow diagram 5hp19


5hp19= 5 speed.......hydraulic planetary.......ZF design number19
Also called A5S325Z

2002 got reverse drum upgrade. If you have a 2002 yours should not fail
Production run of the 5hp19 ran until 3/2002

Eriksson industries sells individual zf parts kit to rebuild this
(860) 388-4418

http://www.thectsc.com/ ........sells rebuild kits

I don't reply to add stuff to my threads. I always edit original content
Sorry if you have to reread it but because of information flow that is added. The information has a relevant place and fits in a certain spot. It's usually information I didn't have before.......3 days ago I knew very little about transmissions. If the automatic fails all the time and the automatic is scary to even look at. We better make it un scary. After looking at it. It's very much more simple to rebuild than an engine.*






Putting this on here for reference and help understanding

There are 7 sets of clutch packs that are in this transmission
each clutch pack has their own cylindrical housing

There are 2 gear sets.....a ravigneaux set in the front and a Simpson (older simple design) set in the back


These are in order from front to back of transmission
Clutch C (brake)
Clutch B (reverse gear)
Clutch A input
Clutch E input (nestled inside of A)

Clutch D (brake) only used for reverse and always the no reverse culprit. Buy upgraded version
Clutch G (brake)

Clutch F input

The 3 diagonal lines near the respective letters are brakes

1st gear..........A G
2nd gear.........C A G
3rd gear..........C A F
4th gear..........A E F
5th gear..........C E F

Reverse.........B D G

GWK.............lock up torque converter clutch (inside torque converter and only applied at cruise)
FL1...............free wheeling clutch (sits inside D brake)

In the power flow diagram. The whole mess in the middle with all the squares are the planetary gears. Looks like 2 sun gears and the planet gears

Some clutches and brakes are active at the same time.....turning some gears and (brake) stopping others gears from turning.

This is a diagram of the valve body activity in its most basic form

Some are clutches to compress and turn gears and some clutches are for stopping the movement of gears (clutch brake)



Each clutch pack has fiber rings and steel rings that compress against each other inside this housing

Each clutch pach has a piston......the piston uses transmission fluid to compress the clutch packs

Each clutch pack is like the manual clutch on you manual transmission. Instead of having 1 large cluch like the manual does. It has 7 small ones that work the gears

On a manual transmission....you press the pedal to engage the cutch. On an automatic.....fluid uses a piston to press the clutch. A solenoid opens and let's the fluid through to compress piston. A likely culprit for problems

Each clutch pack is a wet clutch. They are wet with fluid.....a manual transmission is dry.

Each clutch pack has a solenoid that opens or closes allowing fluid or stopping fluid from getting to the piston to compress the clutch

Solenoid......4 eds solenoids. (Eds means......I don't know yet) variable voltage pulse
.......3 mv solenoids (mv means magnetic valves) 12 volts on/off
Each clutch pack housing has a round spring. When the solenoid closes.....it cuts off the fluid that is compressing the clutch pack. The spring returns the clutch pack to its original non compressed position.

Since eds solenoids are pwm (pressure wave modulated) here is a great link describing how they work. The tcm sends powers them on and off numerous times per minute or second.
http://www.sonnax.com/articles/115-Embracing-Change. The article explains that your solenoids now being put into newer cars are in blocks and cannot be replaced individually any more. Some are actually incorporating the tcm inside the transmission built into these solenoid blocks.....they call it mechatronics. Great for factory costs.....not great for us. One bad solenoid and you have a paper weight. The aftermarket is working on rebuilds. We have the 5hp19........the 6hp19 has this new set up. Looks like they added another gear and made working in it more complicated.....awesome!

There are speed sensors that tell the solenoids when to open.
Turbine speed sensor (turbine is one of the 4 parts in torque converter)
Output sensor......output shaft turns and sensor reads. Output shaft is what drive shaft connects to.
 

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Discussion Starter #2 (Edited)
http://flic.kr/p/oWquvY



My gears are slipping when I floor the car and downshift

That means the clutch pack is not receiving enough fluid to compress quickly and just spins instead of gripping.

It happens from 5th to 3rd
C brake and F clutch are already active. A CLUTCH becomes activated in the downshift
It's probably A CLUTCH that's slipping.

Or from 3rd to 2nd
C BRAKE and A CLUTCH are already active.....G BRAKE is activated on downshift.
G BRAKE Could be slipping

I have not driven the car in a while so I don't remember which of the 2 scenarios above it is. You now have both for examples. If you carefully read the above scenario you will get a large sense on how the 5hp19 works

The diagram above shows the path from downshifting......which clutches activate and which brakes activate

Obviously it's not b clutch because that's reverse

The downshift is a very fast transfer of clutches
If it is 5th to 3rd then the A clutch and the D brake are activated quickly

If it is 3rd to 2nd then the D brake stops being compressed and the G brake is now compressed

I have not driven the car in a while so I do forget which gear is doing this
I will also check them with the step tonic.

I'm going to have to rebuild this transmission.....that much is certain
After 2 days of learning I've narrowed down some causes of slipping.

Many of us are having problems and we are being told to replace this transmission or that it's junk.
It's actually very simple once understood and broken down. The clutches should last forever if we do preventative maintenance on the transmission within reason. As in.....ohm out solenoids we can get to when replacing the filter. We don't touch this stuff because we are afraid of it. We are afraid of it because we don't understand it.

I had a guy on here offer me a used transmission with 150k on it for $1300
I can make this one brand new for $1000 with upgraded d/g brake clutch that causes no reverse
And a toque converter with a seal that doesn't disintegrate
All new steel rings and fiber (clutch packs)
New and upgraded seals
And a refreshed valve body

It's coming out of the car anyway and the procedure is well documented. The workings however are not
 

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Thanks for taking some of the mystery out of the auto trans operation glhx!
There must be a fix by replacing an individual component.

The valve body looks like labirynth, I was intimidated and intrigued by it at the same time.

Sonnax also has great info, it looks like the TCC solenoid might have something to do with the slip:

Quote: "When bore wear delays TCC apply, the vehicle RPM may surge (2-3), or set gear ratio codes due to high slip rates. Installing the Sonnax oversized TCC apply valve 85755-08 can restore correct lube pressure and valve control timing."

http://www.sonnax.com/parts/2601
 

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Discussion Starter #4 (Edited)
I must have been too tired last night to correctly look at the pattern. I updated it
Looks like D brake is only used for reverse.

I will do some research on the sonnax. On first read it's confusing. It looks like wear inside the passage that feeds the tcc causes surging.....which I have





I also don't know what the squares mean. My guess is moving gears.


Not sure what this is but it has a lot of computer info for some ZF transmissions.
http://www.scribd.com/mobile/doc/37312293

How an automatic transmission works
http://www.carparts.com/transmission.htm
Except ours use clutches as a brake....the apex ampules here use bands.
Bands are like that oil filter wrench with the handle that wraps around the oil filter. Same concept

Useful info from other bmw website
http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=409201

Solenoid specs, functions
Clutch active chart
http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=206719&d=1257109624
 

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Discussion Starter #5 (Edited)
http://flic.kr/p/oX3Dwb

look at all the squares in this picture.
You have 3 in the front and 2 squares behind them
The front row represents the reverse sun gear in the middle and the planetary gears.
The 2nd row is the larger sun gear and small planetary gears. It's built into the carrier.


I do not know what the free wheeling clutch does either. I know it is a sprag type 1 way clutch that is not allowed to spin both ways. It only is used from 1st to 3rd......I don't know why

The stator in the torque converter is also a sprague clutch.


A5S 325Z......this is our transmission.......a nice fluid chart to go by
A5S 325Z......Automatic .....5 speed.....S=________ ....325 foot lbs.......ZF
This gear box is rated for 325 foot lbs of torque as represented by the #


-







TORQUE CONVERTER
updated seal and Kevlar clutch
Torque converter has a buna type seal that won't stand up to the heat. It disintegrates over time and allows fluid to leak through it. This engages or disengages the lock up clutch when it's not supposed to. Fluid pressure is what holds the lock up clutch in place. If the fluid is bleeding off, it can't hold the clutchn the locked position. This causes rpm to jump around in 5th gear.....
..........A new seal should be made of viton and have a Kevlar impregnated clutch.
ZF cheap piece of $&@# junk.
-
 

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That is the Ravigneaux gearset. Each clutch B, A & E flow into the Ravigneaux gearset thru a different part of it. Take a look at JJrichar's assembly video, he explains how each goes into it.

Clutch A goes into the sun gear of the Ravigneaux gearset.
Clutch B goes into the small sun gear of the Ravigneaux gearset.
Clutch E goes into the planetary gear of the Ravigneaux gearset.
 

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Discussion Starter #7 (Edited)

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Discussion Starter #8 (Edited)

If you look at the chart above you can see when these are on and the pin out resistance for them-




PWM - pulse width modulated

All EDS solenoids are pwm and have a range of 0-.8 amps
They variably open and close the valve according to what the tcm tells them to do
They are not like the mv solenoids which are on or off.
You can run 12 volts to the mv solenoids
You cannot run 12 volts to the eds solenoids.

I guess you could run less than .8 amps to eds solenoids to test the opening of them.....I don't know....maybe one of you does

Eds4 controls the torque converter clutch. Often times we think the tcc is bad when it's just this solenoid that's bad. Here is a thought. The turbine in the torque converter is what turns the transmission. With a lock up torque converter......you get a 1:1 ratio.....engine stepped is transmission speed. This usually happens at cruising speeds. Which would be 5th gear. So why does the converter lock up in 3rd,4th, and 5th?

Eds 1 is the master controller for transmission pump pressure.
It's not like the rest. When the solenoid opens the pressure drops
This is because the line pressure needs to be high most of the time to feed the valve body.

Eds 2,3,4.......when they open.....pressure in the valve body increases

Mv solenoids are either on or off. ....when they activate ......pressure increases.

These solenoids control all pressure to the clutch packs.
 

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Discussion Starter #9 (Edited)
That's interesting is that 4th gear really doesn't have any solenoids running it. The only one that even could be active is the tcc and that's up to the tcm (transmission control module)

The interestig part is the fail safe we've all heard about or seen. Where the car will only work in 4th gear.

When this happens all the solenoids shut down to protect the transmission. Except 4th gear which has no solenoids.....hence when there is no power to all the solenoids....that only leaves the one gear...... 4th......that doesn't have one controlling it. This confuses me. What controls 4th.

It shows that a,e, f clutches are engaged when not in fail safe
So how are these clutches engaged when the transmission is in fail safe.
Questions I'll eventually know the answer to. It's like a puzzle

Fail safe......there is a relay in the tcm sending power to all solenoids. When the transmission thinks it's in big trouble. It turns this relay off.

There was a guy on here who went in fail safe and couldn't understand why or what was happening. At the time.....I didn't either.

Did his tcm relay go bad and **** power off.....or was his transmission in big trouble. And...........what kind of big trouble does the transmission have to have to go into fail safe.....I mean......if it runs in 4th fpgear it will still tear itself apart if something is really messed up.

It's not that this is a dark art.......it's that I don't know the answer to these questions because no one has answered them......it's a dark art for the rest of us because we never knew we had to ask them......most of us have not gotten this far into this subject.

And why 4th gear for fail safe......why not 3rd or second. I can limp a car along in second gear slowly......but not understanding e fail safe it would be scary to get the rpm up enough to start off in 4th. You would be afraid to blow the engine.
 

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Discussion Starter #10 (Edited)

Here is where the wiring goes-


I thought at first I would have to pull the pan to ohm out the solenoids. Now I know I can put an ohm meter to the correct pins on the plug at the transmission using this wiring diagram. The specs of what the ohm out to are above.
 

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Discussion Starter #11 (Edited)
A pretty In depth manual where I found a lot of information
http://www.europeantransmissions.com/Bulletin/DTC.VW/00-39.pdf

When looking at this manual.......it is a VW

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THIS IS A VW 5hp19 SOLENOID SCHEMATIC. IT IS NOT BMW









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THIS SHOULD BE BMW

SAME 5hp19 transmission. DIFFERENT CAR.......DIFFERENT LOGIC AND ORDER OF SOLENOID USE.
They are close.....especially in the first gears.....but in the last gears they are very different in torque converter use


It's the same transmission design. Same zh model with all the same gears and ratios.
They changed the name and operation for the vw. I would have originally thought it would be the same but it's obviously not.

We need to make sure the wiring diagram above is for our cars and not a Range Rover or a vw. I don't want you to follow wrong specs on anything
 

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Discussion Starter #12 (Edited)
http://www.bimmerforums.com/forum/showthread.php?1982003-ZF-5HP19-D-G-Reverse-drum-questions
A VERY GOOD LONK TO LOTS OF PICTURES OF THE 5hp19

That is the Ravigneaux gearset. Each clutch B, A & E flow into the Ravigneaux gearset thru a different part of it. Take a look at JJrichar's assembly video, he explains how each goes into it.

Clutch A goes into the sun gear of the Ravigneaux gearset.
Clutch B goes into the small sun gear of the Ravigneaux gearset.
Clutch E goes into the planetary gear of the Ravigneaux gearset.
How does b fit into all of this.



Those orange teeth sit on those drums. When the clutch is appled it locks the input shaft to the respective drums and spins them. Notice that A and E run the show for all foreword gears. F does as well but A and E are in the first line. The 3 circles on the drum.......outer is reverse the two inner are A and Smaller E. This set seems to be the main input for the transmission. .


It looks like in the sun gear assembly you have a sun gear and 2 splined shafts

The sun gear housing is the larger wheel with the sun gear on the back side attached to it. The B clutch housing connects to the castle teeth

It looks like the e clutch sits over the small spline shaft with the pilot and the smallest circle
A clutch sits over the larger splined shaft with the second circle
And the a/e casing sits inside the sun gear housing which is the big circle

It will be nice to get in there and look at one of these personally.

I'm trying to minimize downtime and understand as much as I can from the Internet side.
Thank you bmw captain for explaining this. It's making sense

I know B clutch sits over A housing on one side and B sits inside C housing on the other side

http://flic.kr/p/pfevLL


This is where B clutch connects to the sun gear housing-
 

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Sub'd, thanks for the great info. People are so quick to flame automatics, but the 5hp19 is a great transmission. Looking forward to upgrading my TC when it fails lol. Well, hopefully not too soon...
 

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Discussion Starter #14

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This is where B clutch connects to the sun gear housing-[/url]

I think you answered your own question! See when you start getting familiar with it you can figure alot out.
 

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. People are so quick to flame automatics, but the 5hp19 is a great transmission..
Yup, the ZF 5HP19 is an extension of the BMW and is a great transmission to work on. If you enjoy working on your BMW, you will enjoy the 5HP19 too.
 

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Discussion Starter #18

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Discussion Starter #19 (Edited)
Something from the bench that didn't make sense to me was how things fit together. The how is obvious......the how it works to a certain extent.....not so much.

The steels in the clutch packs have teeth on the outside
The fiber have teeth on the inside.

Look at the steel rings compared to the fiber rings-
That big plate presses those rings together when transmission fluid behind it forces it forward. The spring pushes it back when the pressure is released


You tube has videos on how automatic transmissions work

Look at A,B,E,
The input shaft is basically locked into the A clutch housing. When the turbine spins the uiut shaft. The A clutch housing is always spinning with it. This means the A clutch and the E clutch steels are always spinning with it as well.......the steel rings are always spinning because the teeth on the outside lock the steels into the clutch housing.
The fiber rings however are not spinning all the time. They are in there with the steels but because their teeth are on the inside. They only turn when compressed with ye steels.
The fiber rings teeth facing inward......connects to the gear set. It is only when clutch pressure is alp plied that these two compress together. They lock into eachother. Then power is transferred. I hope that makes sense........if I read it.....it wouldn't. Only in study of it did I get it.
 

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Discussion Starter #20 (Edited)
Then Look at reverse.....the B clutch. What turns it? It seems by itself and not splined to anything.....because it's not splined to anything.
What turns it is the A clutch housing. The B fiber rings bite into those teeth on the outside of the A clutch housing. This then connects the A clutch housing to the outer most and biggest ring of the trio of gears shown above......Then going into reverse when the b clutch is compressed.

Reverse.......spins the same way as everything else does. But in this it changes direction in the ravigneaux gear set because of the gears it turns. Therefore turning the transmission output shaft the opposite direction

I think that housing is aluminum for non magnetic purposes.

The B clutch fiber rings you don't see fit into those teeth on the A clutch housing....A clutch housing turns B clutch housing which is locked into the outer castle type ring where it is shown several picures up


-

Let's look at the first 3 squares.....sun gear and 2 planetary gears.........
The smaller ones on top and underneath are planetary gears. When the lines are bold going through these it means they are turning. Or they are braking.
Look at the reverse flow in the diagram.......b clutch is activated.....the line then goes to the planetary gears showing you they are activated....meaning they are turning. Then look at the line coming out of the sun gear (middle square) it's going to D brake.....meaning that D is holding the
Carrier housing because D is a brake.....it's like a transmission band in the old transmissions. They don't use bands anymore....now they are clutches and look like every other clutch in the transmission.. The carrier housing is (braked) and D is braking it.. .......this allows the ring gear to move the output shaft .....Confusing but you need to see the video on how stuff brakes and how stuff moves in a transmission ravigneaux gear set. I just understood this and it suddenly all came together. When I studied it.....it didn't and I couldnt understand it. I still don't completely.
I see the rest of the reverse gear flow....starting at B clutch. I look at G and see it braking the F clutch in the Simpson set. f clutch locks up the Simpson housing to the output shaft for 1:1. We don't want 1:1 for reverse. We want a lower gear ratio for torque. The ravingneaux ring gears output splines are turning the Simpsons ring gear....this turns the Simpsons sun gear and turns the drive shaft......Looks like the lines going to the middle sun gear are showing that it's moving.
 
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