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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hi guys,

I'm investigating my next project and i'm thinking of buying a E46 330i, lowering its compression and runnning E85 with a Borg Warner turbo twinscroll EFR9180 (Trying to push the car over 500 whp).

I'm hearing that officially, BMW says "don't go over 10% ethanol on our engine/fuel system. I wonder which parts of the fuel system need to be upgraded to safely use E85 on the E46 330i as the main fuel.

Due to the turbo upgrade, i'll be upgrading the fuel pump and injectors and potentially get the e85 fuel filter. what else should i consider upgrading ? I would love to hear from the community who actually run E85 predominantly.

Any feedback is welcome !

greetings,

Jeroen
 

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Hi guys,

I'm investigating my next project and i'm thinking of buying a E46 330i, lowering its compression and runnning E85 with a Borg Warner turbo twinscroll EFR9180 (Trying to push the car over 500 whp).

I'm hearing that officially, BMW says "don't go over 10% ethanol on our engine/fuel system. I wonder which parts of the fuel system need to be upgraded to safely use E85 on the E46 330i as the main fuel.

Due to the turbo upgrade, i'll be upgrading the fuel pump and injectors and potentially get the e85 fuel filter. what else should i consider upgrading ? I would love to hear from the community who actually run E85 predominantly.

Any feedback is welcome !

.

greetings,

Jeroen
you need to upgrade almost everything. Bigger pumps, injectors... Some guys try and get by with the stock fuel lines which is a huge mistake IMO. They should really be teflon core braided in soft kevlar or SS. Pricey , but practically lifetime hose.
Pegasus
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Hi Bdave, so you're saying the fuel lines themselves need to be changed. That makes sense.
 

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Hi Bdave, so you're saying the fuel lines themselves need to be changed. That makes sense.
the obd2 bmw fuel system is actually really slick. Depending on power level, keeping the stock lines makes perfect sense. The stock lines are amazing quality.

If you can flow enough fuel, which considering your car, it should be fine with stock lines, but you'd need a bigger pump and bigger injectors. And a tune for it. And that's where it starts getting tricky. There are some sources of e85 like race grade e85 which is consistently the same thing. I don't know about in Holland, but in the US, e85 has a flexible content of gas and ethanol that swings a good bit. Thus, what has become necessary here is a flex fuel sensor or a way for the computer to read a change in lambda, which has become more popular. I think you have some version of ms43. Ms43 has no provisions for either one of those methods of compensating for a swing in fuel content.

Ms45, which you might have, may be more capable. It's certainly more confusing. And it has widebands in the exhaust which allows for afr targeting. So a really capable tuner may be able to massage the dme into dealing with it. But your more likely option is to get an aftermarket dme that supports a flex fuel sensor.
 

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Hi Bdave, so you're saying the fuel lines themselves need to be changed. That makes sense.
Ethanol is highly corrosive. many modern cars use nitrile fuel lines instead of the old neoprene. That helps with 10% ethanol content. Even the nitrile lines give up with high concentrations of ethanol.

Pegasus makes a nice carbon impregnated(so no static charge can ignite) teflon core, kevlar braided hose and all the proper size -AN fittings. You must use their AN HOSE fittings but can use any brand for connectors like "y's" "T's" and adapters etc.

-AN 8 for fuel inlet size. Use -4 or -6AN for return line should be OK. You can get Fuel pressure regulators with built in AN fittings. Its time to step up to race quality fittings...loose the hose clamps. Your fuel system is so critical there is no need to scrimp on it.

Be aware, there will be sticker shock. Ask an EXPERT what size fuel lines you will need. Remember the larger ones cost more $$ per foot, and the smaller ones will not flow properly. Choose wisely.

I am estimating FIC 1100cc injectors for your project and the pump of your choice to run in tandem with your oem. Walboro or Bosch are popular choices.

Jeggs and Summit racing are sources for Aeromotive brand FPR and reasonably priced AN fittings, 100micron fuel filters, etc.

Peterson Fluid Systems for source of ball valve shut off valves if you decide to spend a LOT of money and get a fuel cell/
 

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The increased alcohol content in E85 can make some rubber parts brittle and fail over time. Therefore you need to ensure that your rubber parts are either rated for E85 or replace them with something that won't fail with exposure to high volume of alcohol.

E85 has approximately 33% less energy content than 100% gasoline thus you will need your fuel system to handle the higher volume of fuel.

In addition you may have to adjust the electronics in the car (already mentioned above).
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
thanks guys. Perhaps i should have explained better what i already knew. It seems Wallbro pumps are NOT for running E85. I will be using Deatschwerk DW300 instead (maybe two of them). I have a friend in Holland with an E36 M3 who dynoed his E85 setup for 980 BHP on the Wallbro's, then he got bad fuel cuts hence the switch to the more powerfull DW300 (he has 3 in his setup) (His nickname on the internet is DaytonaM3 ).

Anyways, so i'm aware that apart from a correctly setup turbo system, i will need to devote time and money to the fuel. As HPF is using Pro-efi 128 for its ECU, i'm thinking of going in that direction too, and indeed connecting the flex fuel sensors. This way i can pretty much put in it whatever i want (pump 98 or E85). I also heard that the actual % of ethanol in E85 greatly varies. I have a pump less than 2 miles from me; i guess i'm lucky !

Does anyone have a clue on how much the hardware would cost to replace the stock fuel lines with what you suggest ? I indeed do not want to cut corners if the difference between bad and good lines is just a few hundred dollars. If we're talking 1000's, i may first go with the stock setup, as i do trust bluejeans' assessment.

greetings,

Jeroen
 

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Don't know if it's been mentioned, but seems like EFR9180 is an overkill for 500whp on E85. I believe 8374 is sufficient for that power goal.
 

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thanks guys. Perhaps i should have explained better what i already knew. It seems Wallbro pumps are NOT for running E85. I will be using Deatschwerk DW300 instead (maybe two of them). I have a friend in Holland with an E36 M3 who dynoed his E85 setup for 980 BHP on the Wallbro's, then he got bad fuel cuts hence the switch to the more powerfull DW300 (he has 3 in his setup) (His nickname on the internet is DaytonaM3 ).

Anyways, so i'm aware that apart from a correctly setup turbo system, i will need to devote time and money to the fuel. As HPF is using Pro-efi 128 for its ECU, i'm thinking of going in that direction too, and indeed connecting the flex fuel sensors. This way i can pretty much put in it whatever i want (pump 98 or E85). I also heard that the actual % of ethanol in E85 greatly varies. I have a pump less than 2 miles from me; i guess i'm lucky !

Does anyone have a clue on how much the hardware would cost to replace the stock fuel lines with what you suggest ? I indeed do not want to cut corners if the difference between bad and good lines is just a few hundred dollars. If we're talking 1000's, i may first go with the stock setup, as i do trust bluejeans' assessment.

greetings,

Jeroen
You might want to give the idea of using the stock fuel line some more thought.
BMW SPECIFICALLY states their fuel system is NOT E85 compatible.

Reproduced post:

Originally Posted by pits200 View Post
"They also say not to boost the car to two times the stock output. They also say meth is corrosive. They also say you should only use BMW differential fluid. They tell you not to do it because the car wasn't designed with E85 in mind. Just like it wasn't designed to push 18 psi through the stock turbos but it doesn't mean you can't do it.

I am not saying there wouldn't be some modifications but is there any concrete evidence of any bmw parts deteriorating from use of E85? I'm not looking to do something that would be bad for my car, just curious.
What makes you think that BMW parts won't deteriorate when they are specifically not made for E85? Ever see that badge on the backs of some Fords and Chevys that indicates they can use "flex" fuels? It's because they were built with parts specifically designed for E85. They don't use a lot of E85 in Europe. But it's your car, so as you say, you can do whatever you want with it. Just be willing to live with the consequences."

http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=658101 is the link that covers the above info in quotation marks. Please GO to the link for much more information on this subject.

Also, I am not a Walbro fanboy but lets not spread any bad info. While I am sure the fuel pump you chose is just awesome, there is not a single notation on the entire world wide web of any Walbro failures from E85. On the contrary they seem to be working just fine.

Your cost to do your fuel line depends on how much injector you are running. With a FIC 1100cc you shopuld be able to supply that with a 6An feed.....an 8AN for sure. I cant do all YOUR work for u bro. You need to go here and get a calculator. I am going out on a limb to say all in you can do a LIFETIME fuel system for about 1k...maybe 1200 with a pump. Dont be running 3 pumps for your size project. That would be ridiculous.


910 PTFE Lined Kevlar Braided Lightweight Racing Hose
https://www.pegasusautoracing.com/productselection.asp?Product=3490

Ouch! 17bux a foot. There is a reason. It lasts forever, wont leak. The aramid braid is so much better than the SS braid as far as flexablity. Some guys opt for steel braid under the car, and Kevlar braid everywhere else.

If you have clever friends, they can fashion SS TUBE lines under the car to mate with the PTFE(teflon) lines under the hood and at the fuel tank area.
That is what I did.

You can find MUCH cheaper stuff from China that nobody trusts. Not to mean its not OK. But China does have QC issues

you need to measure carefully then buy one more foot than you think you will need. You need to figure out what FITTINGS you will need too. Buy ONLY the basic stright fittings from pegasus. All hose manufactures are alike in this matter.

You need to plan carefully. A lot of angled fittings or "y"s can be bought from Jeggs as long as they dont have to go on a BARE hose ending. My guys built the entire fuel system in a sterile environment OUTSIDE my car...then installed.


You can always go the CHEAP, unsafe way. That always works well until you leak, catch fire and burn to a crisp.
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
Hi Bdave,

Thanks for the ball park quote. Of course i'll do my own calculation, just wanted to have some idea. For $1200 as a quote for the whole total hardware replacement except the tank itself, it's definately worth just changing all then.

Btw, about the e90 post, i actually talked to the R&D engineer of the N54B30 fuel system. I also asked him questions about using E85 in the Siemens Piezzo injectors. He says when the injectors get to 100C, the filter system inside the injector starts to deteriorate, making the piezzo injectors used for the N54B30 turbo system very unfit ! I asked what can be done and the only thing he knew is to wait for upgraded injectors to come out. Research into that is being done, but he couldn't say if BMW would want Siemens to come out with injectors fitting that particular engine.

He did mention that as long as the temperature of the injectors stay (well) below the 100C, the system performs extremely well. In fact, the piezzo technique totally eliminated the cold start issue of E85; and due to the super high pressure, also the cold temp issue was MUCH less of a problem.
Since the E46 has port injection, i'm not worried about the injectors for the 330i.

The E91 335i was my original project, but dubbed too expensive, this is why i'm now turning my attention to the E46 330i (touring).

I think E85 will be worth it, as i think it will eliminate the need of water/meth injection, and possible be slightly cheaper than ron98. E85 is about EUR 1.30 per liter. Imagining you need 30% more, it costs EUR 1.70. Currently, ron98 sells for EUR 1.85 and i think it will soon go towards EUR 2.00 per liter. Flex fuel has the future IMHO.


greetings,
Jeroen
 

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thanks guys. Perhaps i should have explained better what i already knew. It seems Wallbro pumps are NOT for running E85. I will be using Deatschwerk DW300 instead (maybe two of them). I have a friend in Holland with an E36 M3 who dynoed his E85 setup for 980 BHP on the Wallbro's, then he got bad fuel cuts hence the switch to the more powerfull DW300 (he has 3 in his setup) (His nickname on the internet is DaytonaM3 ).

Anyways, so i'm aware that apart from a correctly setup turbo system, i will need to devote time and money to the fuel. As HPF is using Pro-efi 128 for its ECU, i'm thinking of going in that direction too, and indeed connecting the flex fuel sensors. This way i can pretty much put in it whatever i want (pump 98 or E85). I also heard that the actual % of ethanol in E85 greatly varies. I have a pump less than 2 miles from me; i guess i'm lucky !

Does anyone have a clue on how much the hardware would cost to replace the stock fuel lines with what you suggest ? I indeed do not want to cut corners if the difference between bad and good lines is just a few hundred dollars. If we're talking 1000's, i may first go with the stock setup, as i do trust bluejeans' assessment.

greetings,

Jeroen
The 3 Walbro,s i had did not fail but we ran out of fuel with 835Whp/960Hp,i have changed them to 3 DW300+lph because these pumps are tested with 100% ethanol .
Andreas from PPF Sweden recommented them to me because i use E85.

He told me that these 3 DW pumps make atleast 1300Whp.
 

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The 3 Walbro,s i had did not fail but we ran out of fuel with 835Whp/960Hp,i have changed them to 3 DW300+lph because these pumps are tested with 100% ethanol .
Andreas from PPF Sweden recommented them to me because i use E85.

He told me that these 3 DW pumps make atleast 1300Whp.
Suuuure!!! This is a TOTALLY different story than saying "All Walboro pumps are no good for all E85 projects. That is really what Dubversion posted. Maybe its a language thing...probably. Its got to hard to talk tech in a foreighn language. Everything is so precise. More power to you!


Dubversion is talking about making what, 500HP with E85 with FIC 1100cc injectors? Is this ball park? I am sure Walboro makes some pumps that can keep up wit the flow to keep the FIC 1100's very happy. Daytona's project...closer to 1000hp on e85 needs a huge flow of fuel and 2150cc injectors fed by -10AN fuel line or greater.

I am sure that any brand pump would be fine to make only 500hp on E85. You are only going to need two, max. The European brand Dubversion chose is probably a great choice(best choice, I agree), but that does not automatically make the Walboro a bad choice for FI and E85 up to a certain level. They are hugely popular and are proven work horses...maybe just not good enough at 850hp level on E85...thats a lot more flow than 500HP.

Daytona,
Those pumps are 300lph each? Yep, you need all three for sure. I have a 1250lph single pump for my same size project as yours. How BIG are the injectors? Mine are 2150cc.
My single fuel pump is 1250lph or 800lbs per hour.

Do you have some way to control all your pumps or are they all screaming all the time even at low RPM/cruising?
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
Bdave, to clarify,

I did not say Wallbro's are no good for E85, i said "It seems Wallbro pumps are NOT for running E85."

The Swedish tuners have mentioned to Daytona that the Wallbro pumps may not handle E85 in the long run ,as they were never designed for it. It makes sense then NOT to use wallbro pumps, right ? I don't really care that people still use them in an E85 setup. It's been proven that smoking causes lung cancer, yet 25% of population smokes. The fact that people do something doesn't make it safe or smart. I'll choose pumps that were DESIGNED to handle E85, that was my point. The pump may have parts that will break down over time from alcohol.

there are stories out there, that backup the Sweeds' opinion on Wallbro and E85:

http://www.ka-t.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=53344


I want my car to make 500 whp on ron98. This is different than stating i want 500 BHP on e85. To eliminate the need to water/meth and choosing a fuel that will not go over EUR 2 per liter next year, i'm now looking into making the M54B30 car E85 safe.

Sorry if i cut corners in explaining my setup, i hope i've explained it a little bit better now.

thanks again though for your contribution, it is definately appreciated !

greetings,
Jeroen
 

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Bdave, to clarify,

I did not say Wallbro's are no good for E85, i said "It seems Wallbro pumps are NOT for running E85."

The Swedish tuners have mentioned to Daytona that the Wallbro pumps may not handle E85 in the long run ,as they were never designed for it. It makes sense then NOT to use wallbro pumps, right ? I don't really care that people still use them in an E85 setup. It's been proven that smoking causes lung cancer, yet 25% of population smokes. The fact that people do something doesn't make it safe or smart. I'll choose pumps that were DESIGNED to handle E85, that was my point. The pump may have parts that will break down over time from alcohol.

there are stories out there, that backup the Sweeds' opinion on Wallbro and E85:

http://www.ka-t.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=53344


I want my car to make 500 whp on ron98. This is different than stating i want 500 BHP on e85. To eliminate the need to water/meth and choosing a fuel that will not go over EUR 2 per liter next year, i'm now looking into making the M54B30 car E85 safe.

Sorry if i cut corners in explaining my setup, i hope i've explained it a little bit better now.

thanks again though for your contribution, it is definately appreciated !

greetings,
Jeroen
Only reason people use walbros in E85 is that they are cheap to replace , and you need to replace them often.

Best pump i've found sofar for E85 is stock pump feeding a surge tank with Aeromotive pumps in it.

My walbro lasted 20 days , been running M3 since start of winter.

The stock fuel lines flow enough for 500rwhp and they take the E85 pretty damn good , where people go wrong is when they first use the lines for gas and then use the same lines for E85..

Braided hose is something i'd never use underneath the car , i'd rather use hardline and tie it to the ends with as short as possible hoses
 

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if you want to test the stock fuel line, fill it with whatever you're going to use and plug the ends. Freeze it, heat it, pressurize it. I've done some of this with my stock fuel lines with meth, I was extremely impressed with how it held up. Being that it was in the car, i wanted to test to see if the stock fuel line was a viable way of bringing meth to the motor. Route is ultimately what made my decision against it. In my opinion the stuff that renders the fuel system, if anything, not e85 compatible is more the injectors, the flex hose to the rail, not the hard plastic lines. I couldnt get the hard plastic line to break down sitting in meth for three weeks. it didn't even release color. When a blanket term like 'fuel system' is used, you can't assume every part. I mean, the gas tank is plastic too, it can definitely take it.

The big question that isn't getting addressed is power. How much power are you looking to make? If you're trying to make over 400whp, the stock lines are out of the question for e85. In fact, it may not get up to that. Some people are stretching stock fuel systems to 600whp in obd2 e36s on race gas. But for e85, you need at least 50% more fuel, given the same power.

bdave, some hose ends are interchangeable, no question, but that becomes infinitely more rare in the ptfe hose. For example, my hose ends would never work on any other hose ever. My teflon hose is too weird. But where I run ss braided rubber or nylon braided rubber, the hose ends are pretty modular.
 

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Only reason people use walbros in E85 is that they are cheap to replace , and you need to replace them often.

Best pump i've found sofar for E85 is stock pump feeding a surge tank with Aeromotive pumps in it.

My walbro lasted 20 days , been running M3 since start of winter.

The stock fuel lines flow enough for 500rwhp and they take the E85 pretty damn good , where people go wrong is when they first use the lines for gas and then use the same lines for E85..

Braided hose is something i'd never use underneath the car , i'd rather use hardline and tie it to the ends with as short as possible hoses
Exactly. Its like you designed my fuel sysyem. My main tank feed is a stock OEM pump with an Aeromotive 1000 feeding kevlar braided PTFE that is impregnated with carbon to eliminate any static charge build up.

ALL outside/underneath the car runs are 100% SS tubing. All feeds are -10AN or equivalent.

The Aeromotive Stealth Fuel Cell has a completely independent circuit. The fuek cells come with a built in (in my case) Eliminator 1250 lph fuel pump. Feed to a Y at the fuel rail is the same....-10AN PTFE core braided Kevlar in the truck and under the hood.....all 100% SS tubing runs underneath the car.
Fuel is contained or diverted by four heavy duty Peterson Fluid Systems -10AN Ball Valves and -6AN Ball valves (return lines).

I wanted to save some $ here or there and was completely talked out of doing something like that. Switching from one tank to another will take 20 seconds.
 

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if you want to test the stock fuel line, fill it with whatever you're going to use and plug the ends. Freeze it, heat it, pressurize it. I've done some of this with my stock fuel lines with meth, I was extremely impressed with how it held up. Being that it was in the car, i wanted to test to see if the stock fuel line was a viable way of bringing meth to the motor. Route is ultimately what made my decision against it. In my opinion the stuff that renders the fuel system, if anything, not e85 compatible is more the injectors, the flex hose to the rail, not the hard plastic lines. I couldnt get the hard plastic line to break down sitting in meth for three weeks. it didn't even release color. When a blanket term like 'fuel system' is used, you can't assume every part. I mean, the gas tank is plastic too, it can definitely take it.

The big question that isn't getting addressed is power. How much power are you looking to make? If you're trying to make over 400whp, the stock lines are out of the question for e85. In fact, it may not get up to that. Some people are stretching stock fuel systems to 600whp in obd2 e36s on race gas. But for e85, you need at least 50% more fuel, given the same power.

bdave, some hose ends are interchangeable, no question, but that becomes infinitely more rare in the ptfe hose. For example, my hose ends would never work on any other hose ever. My teflon hose is too weird. But where I run ss braided rubber or nylon braided rubber, the hose ends are pretty modular.
Good post. But realize ALL rubber fuel line in high performance situations has a life of about 5 years. Braided or plain, it makes no difference.

http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/CFR-2010-title40-vol20/xml/CFR-2010-title40-vol20-sec90-127.xml
Federal code for fuel line permeation above section 4 states:(4) The emission standards in this section apply over a useful life of five years.

http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=82018
Discussion of PTFE line in link above.

http://www.460ford.com/forum/showthread.php?t=126759
life of braided rubber fuel line in above link.

http://www.gt40s.com/forum/gt40-tec...oling/25531-life-span-aeroquip-fuel-hose.html

lifespan of Aeroquip hose in link above (FIVE years)

It's pretty well accepted, rubber fuel line has a life or 5 years, some include shelf life in that computation. I plan on keeping my M3 a long time. I went with teflon lines. Small investment to do it right, once, the first time.
.

Its no big deal to use proprietary fittings for PTFE fuel lines. I made a point of buying only BASIC fittings from Pegasus. Any Y's or T's or angled plumbing was bought from any number of vendors including Jeggs, Summit racing, and Aeromotive. Those items go between the hoses. Doing this give the best flexibilty for your install. If you need a slightly different angle, you can go to your supply bin or corner Speed Shop to find a fitting that will work.
 
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