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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hi guys,

Has anyone ever looked into hooking up a waterinjection kit to their supercharger systems for more power and eliminating knocking problems ?
If so, was it worth it, what did it cost how did you do it ?

Maybe someone of ESS of AA can also reply ?

Any feedback is appreciated !

greetings,

Dubversion
 

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:repost:

But AA has a water/alcohol injection kit. Works great with one issue. The tank and pump is mounted to the plastic battery cover. It won't last long with spritied driving and the cover will break. I had to make my own. It is screwed on the front to the floor panel and the back is bolted to a metal strap which is bolted to the battery hold down.

Here's a pic.

 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Search, search, search...
This topic has been addressed ^1000...
I don't think it's been answered 1000 times. I am still not able to find one post where it addresses superchargers of ESS or AA. Please prove me wrong, because me not finding them does not mean they don't exist, i may just suck at searching ? In that case, some help is appreciated.

bigjae1976,

thanks for your reply. How much labor was the built in and is it really worth the trouble ? Should it only be considered when you have knocking problems ?

greetings,

dub
 

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bigjae1976,

thanks for your reply. How much labor was the built in and is it really worth the trouble ? Should it only be considered when you have knocking problems ?

greetings,

dub
I'm not sure how much it will help with the knocking. I can say that I've never really noticed any loss in power due to heatsoak...even at the track.

Its actually not a lot of work. I modded the kit and ran the water line from the trunk underneath the car. I bought my s/c and w/a kit used to the nozzle was already drilled and installed. The hardest part for me was building the new mount.
 

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water/alcohol/meth injection are subjects that I thought, were beaten dead into the ground. I have run meth, I've seen plenty of AA meth setups, I don't think ESS runs a setup. The only injection that is really integral to a boost kit for the e46 is the HPF setup that is controlled by the AEM computer that also runs everything else. So all other setups aren't model specific- they're universal, and it's all very easy to set-up. There are controllers from Labonte, AEM, snow, among many others, beyond the controller, all you need is a nozzle with a screen filter, plastic lines, a one way valve, a shureflo pump, and a tank. If you want to be awesome and run 100% meth completely safely, use a walbro and a fuel cell and find a controller that will work. I personally have a preference for kits that pulse a nozzle instead of controlling pump voltage (it feels like deja vu- how many times have i gone on about this?). FJO and Aquamist offer such kits, but they cost a lot more, $800-1200 with everything. If you plan to tune your car around having meth, for the higher octane and heat suppression, then you probably want something more like the FJO or aquamist, but if you plan on having something to counter heat soak, you're running a supercharger- and want to ensure that things are cool, I'd buy the very cheap AEM (can be had for less than $350 at the right place) kit and run 50% meth/50% water with a small nozzle. I have my entire setup in my spare wheel well, I run the meth line and all of its wiring through a hose under my car along the fuel lines.

If you want to further search this topic in this here website, use words like "meth" and "methanol"
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
Thanks guys !

@bigjae1976:
If i understand the theory correctly behind the water kits, it's as follows. The water cools down the gasses enough to only combust when the spark plug fires; the methanol (alcohol) is added to prevent corrosion due to the added water (water is a natural oxidizer). The reduced heat resolves knocking (pre combustion without a spark) and it also increases octane level (to 116 , which on its turns can add to get higher compression ratios. I have a compression ratio of 10.5 in my 325ti, and since this mixture is only important inside the cilinder, which supposedly can handle 400 hp, i think adding this little kit should effectively - and safely ? - add some more hp.

Here's an interesting link to the subject. They'll explain it on a aluminium V8 engine (compression at 10.25:1) in an airplance which is turbocharged:
http://www.alcoholinjectionsystems.com/a11/116+-Octane-With-Water-Injection!/article_info.html

They got a lot more hp from it.

@bluejeansonfire
From what you're telling me, it seems like the kits are DIY and (much) easier to install than a s/c. It just so happens a 325ti (my car) does not have DSC system installed and that leaves me some room under my hood to install it in. Not sure if it's big enough though. My first concern is of course if this is safe for the engine, but somehow i think it actually makes a supercharger safer, because it cools everything down !
I'm sorry about your deja-vu feelings. And thanks for sharing your story (yet again). My searches were done with "water, injection" and the database query of this forum frankly kinda sucks..... And, of course, i'm a bit lazy (psych)... The combination will surely lead again to asking redundant questions and getting double answers...
It just so happens i'm getting my supercharger installed soon. So i'll be asking the guys at ESS about it as well. I'm going to drive to norway to ESS to get it done on the spot. I'll probably make a write up and share my road trip with your guys; i'm bringing my camera and also getting the before and after dyno done.

I'm looking into this water/meth injection, because it seems to be the only, affordable modding after my TS2 installation.

Greetings,

dub
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
whats wrong with the methanol :dunno:
Actually, it's better with the methanol, as it prevents the corrosion due to the added water. I do think that aluminium engines corrode slower than iron cast ?

I guess the tank should be filled with the mixture already, so the choice of what to put in the tank is random ?

Here's an interesting write up on which mixture to use:

http://www.rbracing-rsr.com/waterinjection.html

greetings,

dub
 

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I've run the Snow basic kit on prior ESS CF s/c kit e36 and am running a Cooling Mist setup on my AA c38 setup. Both are rudimentary boost triggered via a Hobbs switch and tapped into the generous sized windshield reservoir provided by BMW. I run the blue stuff with 2 bottles of HEET as per snow's recomendations to achieve an ideal meth/h20 ratio for performance and preserving the pump. I got the Cooling MIst setup for 200 bucks. I was never concerned about corrosion, the discharge pipes in my e36 were pristine after 2 years of water/meth use.
It's a must in midwest heat and humidity + autocross and one July track day with great result and solid year round reliability. I'm a big fan of simple and reliable and the progressive setups seem neat it's just one more link in the mod chain to go wrong. Also for a system nearing 1k dollars the bang for buck factor decreases and I'd prefer to put that to a Stage II fund.
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
mm325,

Thanks ! What kind of hp performance gain did you get due to the water/meth injection kit ? Which one is "better" (i.e. more robust and simpler); the snow or the cooling mist? My budget is also definately below $1000.

greetings,

dub
 

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Dub, you looking at ESS running vortech or ASA?

Cos I ran ASA compressor with WI a long time ago and if you still need help, lmk.
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
Dub, you looking at ESS running vortech or ASA?

Cos I ran ASA compressor with WI a long time ago and if you still need help, lmk.
Hi Mr Paddle,
i'm signed up for a twinscrew stage II (so including intercooler). I have a 2001 325ti (Euro). It has 8 PSI extra boost (manual transmission).

I'll go and ask the guys at ESS about this. Maybe they also have some ideas. I'd like to know why they don't offer the WI kits as a stage X upgrade; WI makes a lot of sense in my naive view.

I'm currently trying to find out how much more power the kit would give me. I'm also looking for a solution that in case my water tank is empty, no harm can be done - it seems most kits seem to have this feature.

Do you think the ECU has to be reprogrammed when installing this kit ?

greetings,

Dub
 

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unless you find your car pulling timing due to knock, there should be no reason to install a meth kit. You're on fixed boost, with a good tune there should be no need to do this. If you find that the tune is aggressive and it's pulling notable timing, 'cause you're knocking all over the place, you might meth, but I think ESS doesn't tune like that.

BTW, there's absolutely no harm in shooting a 50/50 mix- just make sure you're not shooting so much you're on the verge of hydrolocking your engine. Straight meth causes some concerns regarding pump, fittings, aluminum, couplings, etc. For your application, if you're not game for the FJO setup from alamomotorsports.com, I would either piece together a Labonte motorsports setup or buy an AEM water/meth kit.

For review: I think you don't need meth/water, it will be a needless expense/headache. If you find that you're pulling back timing, ignore the previous sentence. For supercharged cars, I suggest a boost-based systems that AEM, snow, and Labonte offer. Snow is the same stuff, just more expensive. Everyone uses the same basic pump. Aside from the controller, they're all very similar, sometimes the controller too.
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
Hi bluejeansonfire,

I am not expecting any knocking problems from ESS's car tuning. I'm looking into a potential next upgrade to the car, keeping my orignal ideas about upgrading a BMW: it's supposed to be very save, no extraordinary (read: unsafe) wear on the engine and life time lasting/maintenance free. I know a TS supercharger needs an oil change every now and again. I understand a WI kit will need a water/meth refill (duh). I use my car daily and i'm not really interested in racing it. Just the occasional traffic light drag is what gets me off....

So i'm looking for more HP without a headache. My car will be boosted if i (ever) install a WI kit. I've looked at Snow's just now; they seel a nice looking kit stage 3 with MAF booster (so progressive) for $729. It includes an electrical unit for in the cockpit to set and check the unit, which is worth the extra money in my eyes.

AEM does not carry a kit with the gauge kit ? Labonte is actually more expensive for the same kit (stage 3 - $769)
 

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Hi bluejeansonfire,

I am not expecting any knocking problems from ESS's car tuning. I'm looking into a potential next upgrade to the car, keeping my orignal ideas about upgrading a BMW: it's supposed to be very save, no extraordinary (read: unsafe) wear on the engine and life time lasting/maintenance free. I know a TS supercharger needs an oil change every now and again. I understand a WI kit will need a water/meth refill (duh). I use my car daily and i'm not really interested in racing it. Just the occasional traffic light drag is what gets me off....

So i'm looking for more HP without a headache. My car will be boosted if i (ever) install a WI kit. I've looked at Snow's just now; they seel a nice looking kit stage 3 with MAF booster (so progressive) for $729. It includes an electrical unit for in the cockpit to set and check the unit, which is worth the extra money in my eyes.

AEM does not carry a kit with the gauge kit ? Labonte is actually more expensive for the same kit (stage 3 - $769)
Labonte sells their MAF-based controller for ~$120. Please ignore stages, it's just a marketing thing. I don't know how boost is delivered on a TS, if it's anything like a centrifugal, a boost-based controller is much more accurate. Considering that Snow and Labonte are the same thing, look at the components. IF you're planning on spending anywhere near that kind of money, buy an FJO, it's MUCH more advanced, much more accurate in its injection cycle (try alamomotorsports.com). If you're going to buy a crappy system that controls pump pressure, buy an AEM, it's $330 if you search and request better pricing, and it is progressive.
 
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