E46 Fanatics Forum banner
1 - 20 of 43 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
11 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hey guys,

Give you the last few steps abbreviated:
  • car is at TDC Intake "E" and Exhaust "A" are aligned per the BMW alignment tool
  • installed vanos just prior to full connection to the engine ~5mm out, tightened 2 bolts 180 degrees apart per hub, then loosened 1/4 turn.
  • tightened down not fully, vanos mounting bolts equal turns, installed 3 lower vanos bolts
  • tightened not fully 3 top Hub bolts visible per hub
Proceeded with turning one revolution at the crank to tightened the lower 3 bolts per hub.

Observations:
First thing I noticed was the chain moving on top of the hubs but the hubs were completely stationary. Here is where I should have stopped!
Wasn't exactly sure what to make of that at this point, continued to crank slowly then cranking stops.
Loosen hub bolts now Intake hub is moving at CCW turn of the crank but exhaust is still stationary.

Crank stops going forward and backward, not allowing me to reach TDC.

Don't know if valves are bent or just out of timed, nothing was forced and it's a manual in neutral.
I've removed the Vanos and Hubs off the engine.

Camshafts are not turning when the crank is being turned.

If there's damage, I likely will try the dealer as I really need the work to be done correctly.

Anything you can suggest at this stage would be greatly appreciated.

BTW, located in Raleigh NC.

Thanks,
Mike
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
857 Posts
You've locked one or more pistons against the opened valves.
You'll need to determine which valves are locking which pistons and turn a camshaft(s) to close those valves enough to move the piston(s) through TDC and the crank back to #1TDC. Easy enough to say just reverse whatever you've done but you are most likely to end up removing the cams (which allows all the valves to close) then moving the #1 piston to TDC and reinstalling the cams/chain/belt/vanos correctly.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
11 Posts
Discussion Starter · #3 ·
You've locked one or more pistons against the opened valves.
You'll need to determine which valves are locking which pistons and turn a camshaft(s) to close those valves enough to move the piston(s) through TDC and the crank back to #1TDC. Easy enough to say just reverse whatever you've done but you are most likely to end up removing the cams (which allows all the valves to close) then moving the #1 piston to TDC and reinstalling the cams/chain/belt/vanos correctly.
Hey Thank you, for the information.
Very much appreciated!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
9,120 Posts
Hey guys,

Give you the last few steps abbreviated:
  • car is at TDC Intake "E" and Exhaust "A" are aligned per the BMW alignment tool
  • installed vanos just prior to full connection to the engine ~5mm out, tightened 2 bolts 180 degrees apart per hub, then loosened 1/4 turn.
  • tightened down not fully, vanos mounting bolts equal turns, installed 3 lower vanos bolts
  • tightened not fully 3 top Hub bolts visible per hub
Proceeded with turning one revolution at the crank to tightened the lower 3 bolts per hub.

Observations:
First thing I noticed was the chain moving on top of the hubs but the hubs were completely stationary. Here is where I should have stopped!
Wasn't exactly sure what to make of that at this point, continued to crank slowly then cranking stops.
Loosen hub bolts now Intake hub is moving at CCW turn of the crank but exhaust is still stationary.

Crank stops going forward and backward, not allowing me to reach TDC.

Don't know if valves are bent or just out of timed, nothing was forced and it's a manual in neutral.
I've removed the Vanos and Hubs off the engine.

Camshafts are not turning when the crank is being turned.

If there's damage, I likely will try the dealer as I really need the work to be done correctly.

Anything you can suggest at this stage would be greatly appreciated.

BTW, located in Raleigh NC.

Thanks,
Mike
1) Why you didn't tighten the top 3 hub bolts fully? Who told you not to tighten them FULLY? If the 3 bolts were not tighten fully then turning the crank will turn the cam sprockets but not the hubs and cams. When crank is turning and cams are stopped then pistons hit open valves. Oh dear, when piston near TDC the hitting force is very big and can bend valve easily.

This is why I don't like this method. I would tighten up the top 3 hub bolts, then remove vanos off from spline shafts for more room, then use a 10mm socket (not open wrench) and torque all 6 hub bolts to final spec., then reinstall the vanos, then turn crank 2 or 4 turns for final test.

Where is the crank stopped now relative to TDC, and where are the cams ? Pic of cams top view will help.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
857 Posts
1) Why you didn't tighten the top 3 hub bolts fully? Who told you not to tighten them FULLY? If the 3 bolts were not tighten fully then turning the crank will turn the cam sprockets but not the hubs and cams. When crank is turning and cams are stopped then pistons hit open valves. Oh dear, when piston near TDC the hitting force is very big and can bend valve easily.

This is why I don't like this method. I would tighten up the top 3 hub bolts, then remove vanos off from spline shafts for more room, then use a 10mm socket (not open wrench) and torque all 6 hub bolts to final spec., then reinstall the vanos, then turn crank 2 or 4 turns for final test.

Where is the crank stopped now relative to TDC, and where are the cams ? Pic of cams top view will help.
Naah. He's so far behind the curve that cams need to be removed and engine completely mechanically retimed.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
11 Posts
Discussion Starter · #6 ·
1) Why you didn't tighten the top 3 hub bolts fully? Who told you not to tighten them FULLY? If the 3 bolts were not tighten fully then turning the crank will turn the cam sprockets but not the hubs and cams. When crank is turning and cams are stopped then pistons hit open valves. Oh dear, when piston near TDC the hitting force is very big and can bend valve easily.

This is why I don't like this method. I would tighten up the top 3 hub bolts, then remove vanos off from spline shafts for more room, then use a 10mm socket (not open wrench) and torque all 6 hub bolts to final spec., then reinstall the vanos, then turn crank 2 or 4 turns for final test.

Where is the crank stopped now relative to TDC, and where are the cams ? Pic of cams top view will help.


Thanks for responding, I saw how much help you provided the other chap, shame he never came back with the outcome of his issue, which appears the same as mine.
For me, I really enjoy my vehicle and have been working on my cars for 20 years or so, just never got into the timing side of things. Really thought following the steps and having the BMW camshaft alignment and pin I'd be ok. I was extremely careful with this project to have this happen was a real shock.

I'll get the position of crank relative to TDC and upload pics. Thanks!

I followed the Beisan procedures pretty well so I thought but hit this issue. Now I'm going to have to find a mechanic Indy/Dealership and who knows what kind of service I'll be given most of us work on our cars for a reason. Live and learn!

These were the last steps I followed prior:

Tighten intake hub top two and right (3 total) mounting bolts and exhaust hub top two and left (3 total) mounting bolts (10mm ratcheting wrench).
Tighten bolts evenly in multiple passes.
Note: Intake hub right mounting bolt and exhaust hub left mounting bolt will be mostly tightened since they were tightened in previous step.
Note: Bolts will be tightened further in below step, thus do not overly tighten at this time.

Raj believes the exhaust spline moved during install but I was carefully looking the splines in relation to the vanos the entire time, so not sure if these steps will be what is needed or not.
---------
From: Raj
What you need to do now is rotate the crank and cams one at a time so you can get them all back at TDC, and then try timing the engine again.
If you time it correctly, when you turn the crank clockwise, the camshafts should also turn without delay.
---------

If I want to explore this myself I assume I need to do the following:
1. determine if valves are bent or any engine damage. Read about a borescope not sure if that can be used to answer that question.
2. Try to sync each cam individually back to TDC, not sure if that can only be done w/ a Cam lock.

Or I may have to go the route SloopJohnB indicated really not sure at this point.

But if the engine isn't damaged, and cams have to be removed, wonder just how much more difficult it would be to DIY that too.

Thanks,
Mike
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
9,120 Posts
I was extremely careful with this project to have this happen was a real shock.
Now I'm going to have to find a mechanic Indy/Dealership and who knows what kind of service I'll be given

These were the last steps I followed prior:

Tighten intake hub top two and right (3 total) mounting bolts and exhaust hub top two and left (3 total) mounting bolts (10mm ratcheting wrench).
Tighten bolts evenly in multiple passes.
Note: Intake hub right mounting bolt and exhaust hub left mounting bolt will be mostly tightened since they were tightened in previous step.

Note: Bolts will be tightened further in below step, thus do not overly tighten at this time.

Raj believes the exhaust spline moved during install but I was carefully looking the splines in relation to the vanos the entire time
,
But if the engine isn't damaged, and cams have to be removed, wonder just how much more difficult it would be to DIY that too.

Thanks,
Mike
My answer are numbered as the highlighted bolded text above.
1) You're in real shock bc you made a mistake of interpreting Beisan instruction incorrectly as I point out below.
2) These bolts (2 for each hub) were pretensioned (14Nm then back out 1/4 turns) and so they are not that tight which purposely allowed the hubs to rotate against the sprockets by the pushing spline shafts when bolting down the vanos. You should have tighten then tight at this step to avoid hubs turning when bolting the vanos.
3) "Note: Bolts will be tightened further in below step, thus do not overly tighten at this time."
Gosh, who told you this? All 6 bolts on 2 hubs should be tighten down as much as possible with the open wrench to avoid the hub turning against the sprocket when bolting down the vanos. This is the only mistake you made leading to this big headache.

So, take good clear pics of the cams showing #1 lobes and the cam timing holes for the bridge pin so I could help you to get them back. Also take pic of where the crank TDC or tell us where it is (how many degrees before or after TDC) Pics is better.

Don't turn anything now!!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
9,120 Posts
This problem happened after you finished tightening the top 3 hub bolts for each hub, then you turned the crank to get to the lower hub bolts and during turning the hubs rotated against the sprocket because you didn't tight the top 3 hub bolts tight enough to lock the hub to the sprocket. So instead of turning the hub, sprocket and cam together during this, the not-tight bolts allowed the sprocket turning but not the hub nor the cam. This caused the timing between the hub and the sprocket out of timing, leading to cams and crank out of timing.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
11 Posts
Discussion Starter · #11 · (Edited)
Hi Sapote, please accept my apologies on delay in responding to the thread. Honestly I had all but given up on a solution by my hands alone. Reading the questions now and will respond shortly. Thank you for the assistance. But I have to confess, prior to me creating this post, I had already turned the cams using the 24" wrench to the left both intake and exhaust.

I realize this might change things a lot, but I'm going to provide the pics anyhow.

BTW, I have an appointment with a local Indy for a diagnostic on Tuesday, they plan to
  • Leak compression to determine if engine damage is present
  • If no, reset timing
either way I'll know where I stand and can proceed with that knowledge.

Regardless of the outcome, I will share the results on this thread in hopes that with your help and those others that assisted this can somehow be avoided by others.

Thanks,
Mike
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
11 Posts
Discussion Starter · #12 ·
This problem happened after you finished tightening the top 3 hub bolts for each hub, then you turned the crank to get to the lower hub bolts and during turning the hubs rotated against the sprocket because you didn't tight the top 3 hub bolts tight enough to lock the hub to the sprocket. So instead of turning the hub, sprocket and cam together during this, the not-tight bolts allowed the sprocket turning but not the hub nor the cam. This caused the timing between the hub and the sprocket out of timing, leading to cams and crank out of timing.
Great explanation!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
11 Posts
Discussion Starter · #13 · (Edited)
My answer are numbered as the highlighted bolded text above.
1) You're in real shock bc you made a mistake of interpreting Beisan instruction incorrectly as I point out below.
2) These bolts (2 for each hub) were pretensioned (14Nm then back out 1/4 turns) and so they are not that tight which purposely allowed the hubs to rotate against the sprockets by the pushing spline shafts when bolting down the vanos. You should have tighten then tight at this step to avoid hubs turning when bolting the vanos.
3) "Note: Bolts will be tightened further in below step, thus do not overly tighten at this time."
Gosh, who told you this? All 6 bolts on 2 hubs should be tighten down as much as possible with the open wrench to avoid the hub turning against the sprocket when bolting down the vanos. This is the only mistake you made leading to this big headache.

So, take good clear pics of the cams showing #1 lobes and the cam timing holes for the bridge pin so I could help you to get them back. Also take pic of where the crank TDC or tell us where it is (how many degrees before or after TDC) Pics is better.

Don't turn anything now!!
Cam pics might be irrelevant since I had already turned them, but here goes.

919967


in reference to the TDC marker highlighted on the above image, Crank can be turned Clockwise approx 1/4 turn.
919968
919969
919970



Cams were turned so the actual relationship of Cams w/ the Crank location is not accurate.
919971
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
857 Posts
I say again. Just pull the cams, get the crank at TDC compression (there IS a difference) for #1 cylinder and reinstall the cams/vanos at the correct timing. At this point you've either bent the valves or are highly likely to bend them.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
11 Posts
Discussion Starter · #15 ·
I say again. Just pull the cams, get the crank at TDC compression (there IS a difference) for #1 cylinder and reinstall the cams/vanos at the correct timing. At this point you've either bent the valves or are highly likely to bend them.
Thanks will have a shop take a closer look and do that; i'm probably beyond a point where I can get back on track.
Watched a video on Cam install, looked like it's good to have an extra pair of hands to help with removing/reinstalling certain bolts for that job. But say I did pull the Cam, how do I get the crank at TDC compression. Is this a good example of what I would need to do or have done?

 

·
Registered
Joined
·
9,120 Posts
I say again. Just pull the cams, get the crank at TDC compression (there IS a difference) for #1 cylinder and reinstall the cams/vanos at the correct timing. At this point you've either bent the valves or are highly likely to bend them.
No reason to ask him to remove the cams at this point. He is scared to death thinking about doing this this.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
9,120 Posts
Cam pics might be irrelevant since I had already turned them, but here goes.

View attachment 919971
Hey Mike,

None of the pics are helpful except the last one. I can't tell where is the marking on the crank pulley relative to the reference tab on the block. Can you tell how many degree the crank off from TDC either before or after? Say it the crank mark is on the right side of the reference marking then it's after TDC and if it's left of the reference then it's before TDC. Just roughly how many degrees.

Need to show on pic the #1 cam lobes. I think the EX cam lobe is about 4 o'clock and the IN cam lobe is blocked by the cam (below the cam)

BTW, I have an appointment with a local Indy for a diagnostic on Tuesday, they plan to
  • Leak compression to determine if engine damage is present
  • If no, reset timing
these steps make no sense, as the cams and crank need to be timed before they can do a compression test. If not cranking the engine will lead to more damages of pistons hitting the valves, then they just tell you to spend more money to fix this. I suggest you should try to get the crank and cams timed before doing any compression tests, and it's not hard to get them back in timing. Just provide the info I asked then we will get it back in timed. AFter that you can ask the shop to check compression if you want, but don't let anyone screw it up more, as it may have no damage at all at this point.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
11 Posts
Discussion Starter · #18 · (Edited)
Hey Mike,

None of the pics are helpful except the last one. I can't tell where is the marking on the crank pulley relative to the reference tab on the block. Can you tell how many degree the crank off from TDC either before or after? Say it the crank mark is on the right side of the reference marking then it's after TDC and if it's left of the reference then it's before TDC. Just roughly how many degrees.

Need to show on pic the #1 cam lobes. I think the EX cam lobe is about 4 o'clock and the IN cam lobe is blocked by the cam (below the cam)



these steps make no sense, as the cams and crank need to be timed before they can do a compression test. If not cranking the engine will lead to more damages of pistons hitting the valves, then they just tell you to spend more money to fix this. I suggest you should try to get the crank and cams timed before doing any compression tests, and it's not hard to get them back in timing. Just provide the info I asked then we will get it back in timed. AFter that you can ask the shop to check compression if you want, but don't let anyone screw it up more, as it may have no damage at all at this point.
Hi Sapote,

I had been at TDC for a few days while working on the Vanos, then chain guide etc. I had maybe turned the crank 90degrees clockwise when the stop occurred, so I would estimate TDC would be 270 degrees where the interference occured.

But the current position of both intake and exhaust cams is not where the crank stopped as even before I started this thread, I rotated the cams w/ the wrench. I now understand that also was bad.

I hope my explanation of what procedure the shop will follow is just wrong from my understanding. At the very least, I will passing the info I have from you on what I want to do, and now I know
1. reset timing
2. Compression testing.
I hope they know at this point starting the engine would be a terrible idea.

I'm willing to try anything that doesn't involve cam removal.

Thanks anyway for sticking in there!

I'll check in several times today and if you want more pics, I'll get them pronto!

Thanks,
Mike
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
9,120 Posts
Hi Sapote,

I had been at TDC for a few days while working on the Vanos, then chain guide etc. I had maybe turned the crank 90degrees clockwise when the stop occurred, so I would estimate TDC would be 270 degrees where the interference occured.

But the current position of both intake and exhaust cams is not where the crank stopped as even before I started this thread, I rotated the cams w/ the wrench. I now understand that also was bad.

I hope my explanation of what procedure the shop will follow is just wrong from my understanding. At the very least, I will passing the info I have from you on what I want to do, and now I know
1. reset timing
2. Compression testing.
I hope they know at this point starting the engine would be a terrible idea.

I'm willing to try anything that doesn't involve cam removal.

Thanks anyway for sticking in there!

I'll check in several times today and if you want more pics, I'll get them pronto!

Thanks,
Mike
If you willing to trust me, you will have the vanos timed correctly without removing the cams.

1) The bolded highlighted texts make no sense: you turned the crank 90 degrees CW, then you said the crank TDC marking would be 270 degreed from the block reference. Why 90 became 270?
2) take a clear pic of the #1 and #2 cams lobes

Why I asked for the pic and you are not do so, for free help?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
11 Posts
Discussion Starter · #20 ·
If you willing to trust me, you will have the vanos timed correctly without removing the cams.

1) The bolded highlighted texts make no sense: you turned the crank 90 degrees CW, then you said the crank TDC marking would be 270 degreed from the block reference. Why 90 became 270?
2) take a clear pic of the #1 and #2 cams lobes

Why I asked for the pic and you are not do so, for free help?
New pics posted. Estimated 1/4 turn clockwise as about 90, assuming if TDC is 0, estimated 1/4 turn away from TDC to be around 270 degrees before reaching TDC again. Logic might be incorrect.

TDC marker is about 1/4 CW turn to the right.
920068
920069
920070
920071


Thanks,
Mike
 
1 - 20 of 43 Posts
Top