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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
I have the earlier air pump, and have codes for SAP that keep coming and going, every 4th drive or so from cold. I have replaced the vacuum line, the valve, the O2 sensors, and the pump checks fine. I have not tried cleaning behind the valve which is the likely problem and I don't think I need Cats. Car has 128k mi.

I am really considering the SAP delete but I would like a sim and all the sims available seem to be for the e36 and will likely not work with the M54B30.

Anybody know where an SAP simulator may be available for the 330i?

Thank you! :hi:

UPDATE: Still trying to fix system and keep it OEM, see latest post with OBDII graph.
 

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Why not just fix the problem, SAP problems on these cars are pretty much no brainers. SAP has nothing to do with the Catalytic converters. What O2 sensors did you install? We these "Direct Fit" or did you need to splice the original connectors onto the O2 sensor pigtails?

Get an OBDII smart phone/tablet App and interface, typically $30 or less. These Apps are usually best for drivability issues and they support Emission Readiness Monitor Status, Freeze Frame and Live/Realtime data. They are also great for Logging data for review after the car has been driven and can really help find usual problems.

Android - Touch Scan for $3.95 and ELM327 OBDII to Bluetooth interface.

iProduct - OBD Fusion for $9.95 and ELM327 OBDII to Wifi interface.

http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=1041726

http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=1023149

http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=965526

http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=1052605

http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=1074847

http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=106959

http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=1074847

http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=106959
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
I put in brand new Bosch plug and play sensors. I really appreciate the help and I plan on getting the iphone scanner kit but...it's really down to either the air pump which seems to be working great, or a clogged manifold. I really don't want to pour stuff in the valve like Seafoam, I don't know, I just don't see that being good for the sensors or the cats.
 

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By attempting an SAP delete, you'll likely add more problems than it seems to solve. The SAP just runs for a short time at start up and then is out of the picture after that.

Regardless of what you choose, definitely spend the $20-$30 and get yourself an OBDII code reader and app for your smartphone or tablet as jfoj suggests. It's pretty tough to diagnose DTCs and engine running issues without one.
 

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I put in brand new Bosch plug and play sensors. I really appreciate the help and I plan on getting the iphone scanner kit but...it's really down to either the air pump which seems to be working great, or a clogged manifold. I really don't want to pour stuff in the valve like Seafoam, I don't know, I just don't see that being good for the sensors or the cats.
You have an '03 so it could be 1 of 2 DME configurations.

Early 2003 would have 4 wire O2 sensors, 3 wire MAF and a vacuum controlled SAP Kombi valve.

Later 2003 would have 5/6 wire Wideband O2 sensors, 5 wire MAF and a MAF based SAP system without a vacuum operated Kombi valve.

If you have an easly 2003 with 4 wire O2 sensors one or two cold starts being logged would answer the question about what the O2 sensors are seeing as far as air injected into the exhaust.

Be careful, some of the SAP motors run, but will not move air because the impeller is slipping on the shaft. So the system "sounds" like is is working, but it is not moving are.

Really simple, disconnect the large SAP hose and check for airflow when cold starting the engine. Also take some pictures of your SAP pump and Kombi valve as some of these cars have been bastardized by folks that do not understand the differences in the 2003 split. Post the build month and date of the car as well.

But the OBDII App and interface is LONG overdue, it will become your best friend once you get it.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
I have the early system with the 4 wire Oxygen sensors and the simpler air pump.

The pump checks fine, have checked it with the valve by removing the valve from the manifold. There is lots of air coming past the valve on cold and then it stops as the car warms up. The valve checks fine as well.

I have an Innova 3100 scan tool, do you think I should be able to get the information from that unit by chance?
 

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I have the early system with the 4 wire Oxygen sensors and the simpler air pump.

The pump checks fine, have checked it with the valve by removing the valve from the manifold. There is lots of air coming past the valve on cold and then it stops as the car warms up. The valve checks fine as well.

I have an Innova 3100 scan tool, do you think I should be able to get the information from that unit by chance?
Sorry, most of the Innova scan tools are boat anchors. The 3100 does not support Live/Realtime data and does not log.

Spend $30 or less on what I recommended and you will not use the Innova for anything other than ABS.

Since you have an early car, this should be stupid easy to sort out.

See the type of graph the smart phone/tablet App can gather data for. You can see the deep "V" from cold start to 66 seconds in the graph where the O2 sensor Voltages are diving low. Then there is a sharp, vertical swing to positive Voltage. This is the SAP running and the sharp vertical line is when the SAP shuts off.

http://e46fanatics.com/forum/showpost.php?p=16237779&postcount=34

Likely a vacuum leak between the rear intake port and the SAP vacuum solenoid under the rear of the intake or you may have some other unusual problem with O2 sensors that Logging will make CRYSTAL clear.

Also post your codes and Freeze Frame info.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Damn damn, every time I think it's cleared up eventually it comes back.
Codes P0491, P0492 both Secondary Air Injection System Insufficient Flow, SES light is on.

O2 sensors are new 4 wire Bosch, system is earlier vacuum type, vacuum hose is new, valve is new, pump is not new but seems to be working. I am inclined to replace it, what do you think jf?
 

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The graph looks good, I might like the .CSV file to work it slightly and compare it against many of reference files.

One thing you should do is to clear the codes, even if there are no codes. You may need to clear the codes 2-3 times to make sure everything is really cleared out. Do this even if there is no SES/CEL/MIL lit. This will cause all the Emission Readiness Monitors to toggle back to Not Ready/Clear/Pass.

Then this starts the Emission Readiness Cycle all over again and you should see the SAP Readiness Clear on the first cold start.

I would also like to see Freeze Frame data as well.

One thing that can happen after a problem has occurred trigger the SES/CEL/MIL, I think many DME/ECU may watch the specific events a bit closer and sometimes there may be a "Pending" code in the cue that inadvertently triggers the codes again in a short period of time.
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
Damn damn, every time I think it's cleared up eventually it comes back. Light was on again this morning.
Codes P0491, P0492 both Secondary Air Injection System Insufficient Flow, SES light is on.

O2 sensors are new 4 wire Bosch, system is earlier vacuum type, vacuum hose is new, valve is new, pump is now new also.
I have played the worst game of whack-a-mole, but I am just not sure what to do now. I got the codes before and after replacing each component separately.
 

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Assuming this is a vacuum controlled Kombi valve system, you need to confirm the vacuum is being sent to the Kombi valve.

You may need to log the cold starts for a few days to see hoe the O2 sensors are reading the SAP airflow.

Might be useful to post some pictures of your SAP system. Many of these cars have been molested and hacked up over time with the wrong parts.
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 · (Edited)
I have reset the codes multiple multiple times. The vacuum and pump are both functioning fine when cold. Both are Pierburg and both are brand new. The old ones tested fine too BTW.

EDIT: car is 01/2003 and is a 5 speed 330i. Also, thank you so much, I really want and appreciate help!
 

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OK, pictures look good. Earlier vacuum controlled Kombi valve system.

I think you need to Log the cold starts each morning for a few days to see what is going on. There may be a problem with vacuum switch or vacuum lines under the intake?? Also occasionally the Kombi valve sticks or the diaphragm goes bad, is the Kombi valve original?

This should be very obvious to sort out once you have some daily Log data.
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
OK, pictures look good. Earlier vacuum controlled Kombi valve system.

I think you need to Log the cold starts each morning for a few days to see what is going on. There may be a problem with vacuum switch or vacuum lines under the intake?? Also occasionally the Kombi valve sticks or the diaphragm goes bad, is the Kombi valve original?

This should be very obvious to sort out once you have some daily Log data.
jfoj you are really good. I finally removed the vacuum switch and the short lines were really rotten and collapsed. I couldn't replace the one line until I removed the switch. I had been getting good graphs and bad graphs, I mean this was a very intermittent thing. Combining that with the problem that you can only diagnose it when it's cold and that I don't even drive it every day and it was tough.

My advice to anybody is to replace ALL THREE vacuum lines on this system, not just the long one. I replaced the pump, the valve, and while my wallet is thinner I don't mind too much, this car is a keeper.

On a side note, I hit 130k miles yesterday. The day I bought it, it turned 30k miles so my miles just clocked 100k.
Aug 3 2006 was the same day I joined here also. It has been a wonderful journey! :str8pimpi
 

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franz,

Gald you finally were able to get everything sorted. Rubber vacuum lines are a PITA as they sometimes only leak a small amount and can give intermittent problems.

What I keep repeating and few people listen is replace the rubber every 10 years. Then you will not have problems like this.

If all the rubber and plastic parts under the hood that hold or control vacuum are replaced every 10 years, you will not be constantly chasing things.

But also thanks for updating that you found as this very likely will help others in the future.

The SAP vacuum control solenoid is located under the intake and is a REAL PITA to get access to and work on. Some people just pull the intake and deal with it that way.

I just had a turbo hose on 12 year old VW split the other day. The problem was hard to find and probably had been an issue for a long time because the hose had a very tight rubbber protective sleeve that make the hose like a double walled hose and made it very hard to find the problem and it needed a lot more pressure to leak than a standard air leak.
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
Boy you aren't kidding, I actually removed the windshield cowling to get that last bit of access, I just couldn't see removing the intake manifold if I didn't HAVE to.
Would it be worth it using silicone hoses? Would they last longer?
 
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