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2002 BMW 330Ci
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Discussion Starter #1
Currently dealing with an issue after a new Valeo Single Mass Flywheel Conversion clutch kit was installed in my 2002 330Ci. For additional information regarding the clutch kit, this is the part number and link Valeo 52401220.

Before I go into the symptoms I want to preface that I'm fully aware of gear box chatter from a single mass flywheel conversion or lightweight flywheel and that this is NOT the noise im concerned about.

Starting the vehicle i hear nothing, simply some chatter from the SMF (single mass flywheel), while idling engaging and disengaging the clutch pedal does not produce any sounds or symptoms, upon rolling out of first gear approaching 3k to complete my 1-2 shift i disengage the clutch and at that exact moment at or above 3k rpm i hear a whirling/grinding/metal-on-metal sorta metallic sound with slight clutch pedal vibration. Once clutch is engaged and im now in second gear increasing speed and approaching my next shift point im NOT hearing this sound anymore. The sound is only reproduced when shifting gears at or above 3k rpm and certainly more noticeable in higher RPM when shifting. I've also been able to replicate this sound when i disengage the clutch while sitting still and simply reving the engine past the 3k mark as to where the sound seems to occur.

Below is a list of all parts that were replaced at the time of the clutch installation along with a video link to said noise.
Order:
Description
Exact-Fit Stainless Steel Clutch Line ES#3525712
Improve clutch pedal feel with this simple, yet dramatic upgrade
009536ECS01
Hex Bolt - Priced Each ES#14700 M8x55 07119905391
Hex Bolt - Priced Each ES#14767 M8x100 07119905696
HEX BOLT WITH WASHER ES#2206966 07119906675
Ultimate Valve Cover Gasket Kit ES#2792771
Includes valve cover gasket and sealing washers
11129070990KT
Rear Main Seal ES#2575646
This is the paper gasket located under the crank seal
11141432240
Rear Crankshaft Seal ES#251695
Replace when doing a clutch job.
11142249533
Pilot Bearing ES#2866887
Replace with every clutch service
11211720310
VANOS Oil Feed Line ES#2803369
Supplies oil to the VANOS cam unit. Includes sealing washers. Made in Germany!
11361705532
Oil Filter Housing Gasket ES#258619
Seals housing to the engine block
11421719855
Oil Pressure Switch - M12x1.5 ES#2873941
Leaking or malfunctioning oil pressure switches can be disastrous
12617568480
Temperature Sensor ES#2867843
Monitors coolant / oil temperature
13621433076
Clutch Fork Pivot Pin ES#2091451
Pin that is located on the bottom half of clutch fork
21511223328
Spring Clip - Priced Each ES#3493057
Used on the release fork of the clutch assembly
21517570284
Input Shaft Seal ES#42800
Main shaft seal, 35X64X8
23211224820
Threaded Ring & Clamp ES#2869865
Attaches the two halves of the driveshaft
26111209497
Universal Flex Disc ES#2187549
Also known as a "Giubo"
26117511454
Flange Nut - Priced Each ES#48586
M8-8
26117574872
Hex Bolt - Priced Each ES#2583995
Attaches universal flex disc to driveshaft
26117635643
Driveshaft Center Mount ES#2622940
Aluminum design
26127501257
Butyl Tape ES#48621
Surrounds the center support bearing
26127511140
Self Locking Nut - Priced Each ES#48630
M12X1.5
26127536563
Sealing Ring - Priced Each ES#2580798
14x20
32411093596
Hollow Bolt ES#2597888
M14x1.5x26
32416852469




Clutch kit Mfg Part #52401220


1x Redline 75W140NS Gear Oil 1x Redline D4 Synthetic ATF
UUC * How to reduce gearbox rattle / rollover noise

6x NGK Spark Plugs
Mfg Part #13327512019 Fuel Filter
8PCS For E46 Suspension
2 x 31351095694 Front Stabilizer Link
1 x 31126757622 Front Bushing With Retainer LH
1 x 31126757623 Front Bushing With Retainer RH
1 x 31126758519 Left- Drivers Side Lower Control Arm
1 x 31126758520 Righ- Passanger Side Lower Control Arm
1 x 32111096897 Inner & Outer Tie Rods Assembly LH
1 x 32111096898 Inner & Outer Tie Rods Assembly RH
Set of Clutch Slave & Master Cylinder FTE OEM
1 x 21526785966 - Clutch Slave Cylinder FTE OEM
1 x 21526773670 - Clutch Master Cylinder FTE OEM
YouTube Video of clutch noise
 

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2004 330Ci 85k miles
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Kudos for an incredibly detailed and concise post, especially for a new member. You’ll do just fine on here!

Can you put the car on a lift, have a helper replicate the noise, then find it’s source?
I’d want to know if it’s in the trans or clutch or elsewhere.
 

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2002 BMW 330Ci
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Discussion Starter #3
Kudos for an incredibly detailed and concise post, especially for a new member. You’ll do just fine on here!
Thank you! Its not the most organized because some images for whatever reason didnt make it in due to the 20 image limit. I tried my best LMFAO!
 

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can you hear this noise AT ALL under 3k rpm when you push the clutch pedal? My heart wants to say it's a throwout bearing but it should at least make a little noise at all rpm and simply get much louder with increasing rpm.

i guess here's the real question, if you have the car at 3k+ rpm (sitting still, in neutral) and you press the clutch barely, does the sound engage? if so, throwout bearing. the throwout bearing will make it's sound with the clutch pedal depressed at any depth. the noise is not "pedal depth" dependent. as long as there's some sort of engagement from the clutch pedal, the noise will occur at full volume, as if it's an on/off switch. the noise can be rpm dependent. but will only happen when the clutch pedal is being used. once the clutch pedal is fully lifted, the pilot bearing comes into play and the throwout bearing is no longer activated.
 
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2002 BMW 330Ci
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Discussion Starter #6
I thought the Valeo kit came with a new pilot bearing already pressed into the flywheel? Or is that just for six speeds.
Not sure to be honest, all i know is i bought a new pilot bearing for the clutch job itself because its recommended that item gets replaced. Its one of those things "might as well replace it while youre in there"
can you hear this noise AT ALL under 3k rpm when you push the clutch pedal? My heart wants to say it's a throwout bearing but it should at least make a little noise at all rpm and simply get much louder with increasing rpm.

i guess here's the real question, if you have the car at 3k+ rpm (sitting still, in neutral) and you press the clutch barely, does the sound engage? if so, throwout bearing. the throwout bearing will make it's sound with the clutch pedal depressed at any depth. the noise is not "pedal depth" dependent. as long as there's some sort of engagement from the clutch pedal, the noise will occur at full volume, as if it's an on/off switch. the noise can be rpm dependent. but will only happen when the clutch pedal is being used. once the clutch pedal is fully lifted, the pilot bearing comes into play and the throwout bearing is no longer activated.
When im sitting still and i press the clutch pedal in followed by reving past 3k+ i can hear the sound. However, if im sitting still without the clutch pressed and i rev to 3k+ i do NOT replicate that sound/symptom. I've had 4 people drive/listen to the car without taking it all apart again. Two have said throw out bearing even though its new can possibly be faulty. One said its the disc/sprung hub, and the last person who's opinion i value the most out of the other three said thats a normal sound due to the fact that i went from a dual mass flywheel where the noises like i have are dampened to now a solid single mass flywheel thats not dampening said sound in the video.

I'm under the impression the same as you, that if it were the throwout bearing no matter what RPM if i slightly engage the clutch pedal/throwout bearing i would hear it then. But i only hear the noise/clutch pedal vibration when the clutch pedal is pressed and im at 3k+ RPM
 

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E30M3 Race F10 535 R1150Rt M Coupe
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Without hearing the noise and feeling the pedal with my shoe off (not a joke), if i were a betting man (I'm not) I'd wager for the throw out bearing. Not that one wants to rev in neutral at 3K and press in the clutch (one's gotta do what one's gotta do) I wonder about some deeper/slower clutch engagement and see if you can feel the bearings (rapid pedal shake, albeit slight) at 1/4, 1/2 full engagement.
It's been my experience that a T/O bearing is usually loudest/shakiest in the middle and less on either end. It's a fulcrum thing. The spring on the PP and the work is the hardest through the middle section. Alas that my experience with WORN T/O bearings.
Luckily I've not had a bad new one out of the box.

You could place on a lift or stands (dangerous) and get yourself under there and use a long thin screwdriver and listen/feel on the back side of the pivot pin. If most of the noise/vibration is at the pin (No window to touch the fork) that aids pointing the finger (middle one?) at the T/O bearing.

Let us know.
 

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Discussion Starter #8
Without hearing the noise and feeling the pedal with my shoe off (not a joke), if i were a betting man (I'm not) I'd wager for the throw out bearing. Not that one wants to rev in neutral at 3K and press in the clutch (one's gotta do what one's gotta do) I wonder about some deeper/slower clutch engagement and see if you can feel the bearings (rapid pedal shake, albeit slight) at 1/4, 1/2 full engagement.
It's been my experience that a T/O bearing is usually loudest/shakiest in the middle and less on either end. It's a fulcrum thing. The spring on the PP and the work is the hardest through the middle section. Alas that my experience with WORN T/O bearings.
Luckily I've not had a bad new one out of the box.

You could place on a lift or stands (dangerous) and get yourself under there and use a long thin screwdriver and listen/feel on the back side of the pivot pin. If most of the noise/vibration is at the pin (No window to touch the fork) that aids pointing the finger (middle one?) at the T/O bearing.

Let us know.
Alright, back with a report. As i sit idling without touching the gas pedal i slowly disengage the clutch pedal until it stops and at no point inside the vehicle with the door closed or with the door open do i hear the noises described above. I tried again but this time stopping for a moment every 1/8 of the way until the pedal hits the floor and still no noises inside or outside the cabin.

This next test i did was keeping my foot on the gas pedal steady at roughly the point of where im hearing the sound i described above which is roughly 3krpm to 4krpm pushing the pedal in slowly/incrementally until i can pin point exactly where in the disengagement relative to the rpm do i hear the sound/vibration i described above.

Conclusion, at approximately 3250RPM with the clutch pedal roughly 3/4 of the disengaged is where im hearing the sound along with a slight vibration in the clutch pedal itself. It has to be something, because the sound is very distinct and on/off in the sense if i engage the clutch pedal slightly it goes away, disengage back to about 3/4 it reappears. Same goes for the gas pedal, keeping the clutch pedal at about 3/4 disengage lowering rpms to just about 3k or slightly under the sound goes away, more rpm to 3250 the sound comes right back. Also to note, once i hit the 3/4 clutch disengagement will simultaneously hitting the 3250rpm, 3250rpm to redline the sound sustains along with 3/4 to full disengagement the sound is still there. So anything above those two marks the sound stays, its only until either the clutch pedal is less than 3/4 disengaged or rpm is below 3250 that the sound goes away.

Let me know what you think!
 

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I thought the Valeo kit came with a new pilot bearing already pressed into the flywheel? Or is that just for six speeds.
the pilot bearing is pressed into the end of the crank where the flywheel mounts, not in the flywheel itself.

Ok so i read your post and listened to the video that i didn't know was there haha.

Heres what i can gather based on what i've heard you say, granted it's pretty hard to follow but i'm doing my best (are you near chicago by chance? i'm NW indiana if you're local)
I think you're getting clutch chatter/NVH from the sprung clutch. it seems pretty slight in your video but it's hard to hear. It could be from the single mass flywheel but that would likely be heard and felt with or without the clutch pedal engaged or not.

If you press the clutch pedal to the floor, and rev the car up to it's critical noise point, does it still make the noise? if so, it's either NVH from the single mass FW, OR it's the throwout bearing, OR your pilot bearing.

If the noise does not happen when the clutch pedal is on the floor and you rev it, it is not your throwout bearing or pilot bearing or NVH from the single mass FW because those things would both both be present and felt when the clutch is fully disengaged.

Once the clutch is fully disengaged with pedal to the floor, and the car is stopped, the only factors at play are the rotation of the throwout bearing, pilot bearing, and the rotation of the engine and flywheel.

However, when you have the clutch between 99% and 1% engagement, the sprung hub on the clutch itself comes into play because somewhere in that range you are going to be slipping the clutch and activating the friction material as well as loading the springs on the hub. It could also technically be chatter from the friction material that is giving you NVH.

Edit: ok the more i think about it, the more i think it may be your pilot bearing. Upon rereading your last post, you say the noise persists from 3/4 to fully depressed pedal. If you fully depress the pedal and rev the engine, the noise occurs, right? If that's the case you have 3 options. it's either your pilot bearing, NVH from the single mass assembly, or the throwout bearing. However i don't think it's the throwout bearing anymore because that would start making noise as soon as the clutch pedal grabs. so at like 1/8 of a pedal press, and would continue and stay. Because the noise is occurring deep into the pedal press only, it insinuates that the noise starts occurring when the input shaft of the trans no longer matches the output shaft speed from the crank.

You should be able to hear it at idle, but it's very possible that it's just not bad enough yet.

I think my order of attack, given the info i'm gathering here, would be to drive it and assume it's just NVH from the single mass. If it gets worse, it's the pilot bearing, and if it never does, it's not. A compromised bearing should rear its head fairly quickly. so if you drive the car regularly, you'll know soon.
 

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There's a hole in the middle of the flywheel. The bearing pushes into a hole machined into the back of the crankshaft.
It's always been that way.

The diagrams and pictures can be misleading.

The purpose of the pilot bearing is to stabilize the input shaft of the transmission. So that when the clutch is floating, the input runs centered and true. Also to allow for the input to come to a stop when the clutch is fully disengaged.
 

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There's a hole in the middle of the flywheel. The bearing pushes into a hole machined into the back of the crankshaft.
It's always been that way.

The diagrams and pictures can be misleading.

The purpose of the pilot bearing is to stabilize the input shaft of the transmission. So that when the clutch is floating, the input runs centered and true. Also to allow for the input to come to a stop when the clutch is fully disengaged.
I'm well aware of what a pilot bearing does. I believe the 6 speed transmissions do not use a pilot bearing that is pressed in the crank. Both BMW TIS and the valeo kit I bought show/have a bearing pre-pressed into the flywheel.

910078



 

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For whatever reason, I forgot about that one.... Sigh. Too much chit in my brain to remember.
 

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My excellent technician refreshed my memory.
The 6 speed uses a much larger pilot on the nose of the input shaft. If they were to use the larger bearing, a new crankshaft with room for the larger pilot bearing would be needed. They moved it out to the flywheel.
That crank BTW is also the same as in the S52 E36 M3. & M Coupes.

I'm cognizant that you understood the function of the pilot bearing. I just speak in generalities for the benefit & learning of all. I'm NOT looking down my nose at you.
 

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My excellent technician refreshed my memory.
The 6 speed uses a much larger pilot on the nose of the input shaft. If they were to use the larger bearing, a new crankshaft with room for the larger pilot bearing would be needed. They moved it out to the flywheel.
That crank BTW is also the same as in the S52 E36 M3. & M Coupes.

I'm cognizant that you understood the function of the pilot bearing. I just speak in generalities for the benefit & learning of all. I'm NOT looking down my nose at you.
i've never worked on a 6 speed bmw trans personally, so i guess i just assumed the design would carry over. good to know.
 
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