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Discussion Starter #1
Hmm, Looking at the specs.

330:
24v DOHC Inline 6 3.0L
225hp at 5900rpm
214ft/lbs at 3500rpm
with VANOS

Is300:
24v DOHC Inline 6 3.0L
215hp at 5800rpm
218ft/lbs at 3800rpm
with VVT-i

We get a 10 more HP peark and there is a 4 ft/lb difference in torque peak respectively. But, it seems like there are quite a few is300s that are modded for mad power (I know, supra block). What makes our BMW engine so special? I see our engines are editor choice etc.. but I don't see the same crazy numbers being produced for our engines out of the S/Cs and I don't see any turbo kits at all that are not custom. Seems like to me that stock vs stock there is not much difference and aftermarket goes to the lexus. Objectively speaking doesn't that make the is300's engine a better overall engine if your JUST talking engines. It's probably a lot cheaper to replace if you blow one as well. Am I missing something here? I love the look of my 330 and the engine is adequate and smooth. But, to my non gearhead eyes the is300's engine is the winner becuase of the apparent tuning potential
 

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I understand your reasoning, but their motor is detuned. It doesn't take much to put the power back. I don't think it's the fact that BMW motors can't be tuned, I think it's more about expense and engine-bay room. Aftermarket parts get cheaper as it gets widespread (sometimes). Supra parts are widespread....at least more than BMW's. And those crazy #'s you're seeing are from those huge ass turbos they bolt up to those cars. They could be bolted to a BMW too, but then where will you find the room??? The engine bay is so crammed. There is a tuner in probably every city that could work on a honda/toyota/nissan, but finding a tuner like that for a bmw takes quite a bit of work.

As far as what's so special about the motors.....it's the combination of it's creamy hp/tq curves, and the way the car works w/ the motor. It's just a blast to drive.
 

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even though the numbers are close, in practice, stock vs. stock an is300 is no match for a 330, even a 325 has the advantage I believe.
 

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The reason is, drive both. The Toyota 3.0 NA engone is not nearly as fun to drive. Response, sound, torque curve, powerband etc....I agree about the aftermarket, but it is a JAPANESE car, thats the difference. In japan people are crazy over aftermarket parts, and almost any japanese car will have huge aftermarket support. If people could get BMW's "en masse" in japan, we'd see a lot more parts/kits/etc.

BTW I don't buy the lack of engine bay space comment. Have you seen the e36 engine bay? Have you seen the AA stage 2 turbo kits making 450hp? Notice they mounted the turbos UNDER the car. Anything is possible, just depends on the demand, and on how much the tuner is willing to spend for R&D.

PS. I also don't know what people are complaining about BMW's not being responsive to mods. IMO, 12+RWHP for just an intake(gruppe M) is pretty damn good. With exhaust, throttle body, and differential, you can make your car much faster for about 2grand without going FI.
 

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Discussion Starter #6 (Edited)
Anonymous_FTP said:
I understand your reasoning, but their motor is detuned.
Exactly my point! Their engines are detuned and it is easy to put back the performance. Nobody ever says our engine is detuned and It seems a lot more difficult to find a competent tuner to get the big HP out of ours. Not to mention a lot more $$$. I realize the money aspect is supply demand, Grrr.

Our bimmer engine/trannies are smooth and work and sound good. But, my wife's Highlander has a 3.3L 230hp V6 24v toyota engine and it sounds pretty damn kewl WOT (don't laugh). :D

I guess I'm just a little jealous of the Is300 owners ease/cost of modding their ride. Lucky bastards. At least our cars look better even if we 330s are more expensive to make zoom zoom.
 

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Murgen said:
Hmm, Looking at the specs.

330:
24v DOHC Inline 6 3.0L
225hp at 5900rpm
214ft/lbs at 3500rpm
with VANOS

Is300:
24v DOHC Inline 6 3.0L
215hp at 5800rpm
218ft/lbs at 3800rpm
with VVT-i

We get a 10 more HP peark and there is a 4 ft/lb difference in torque peak respectively. But, it seems like there are quite a few is300s that are modded for mad power (I know, supra block). What makes our BMW engine so special? I see our engines are editor choice etc.. but I don't see the same crazy numbers being produced for our engines out of the S/Cs and I don't see any turbo kits at all that are not custom. Seems like to me that stock vs stock there is not much difference and aftermarket goes to the lexus. Objectively speaking doesn't that make the is300's engine a better overall engine if your JUST talking engines. It's probably a lot cheaper to replace if you blow one as well. Am I missing something here? I love the look of my 330 and the engine is adequate and smooth. But, to my non gearhead eyes the is300's engine is the winner becuase of the apparent tuning potential
peak hp and tq are almost irrelevant.....it's the area under the curve that counts.....and BMW;s are known for really flat torque curves
 

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The IS300 is a formidable foe,

Just looking at the overall car comparisions, it only takes a test drive of each. The solid feel of the BMW is far superior & in the looks dept again Bimmer.

But you are correct motor wise, I agree the IS300 is more upgradable, a relative has one.
 

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First 19" ZHP
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im glad they dont make that many aftermarket products for our car it makes it that much more of a (cant find the word im looking for) but ya you guys probably get the point at every stop light you see a modded out civic or toyota ricer but its pretty rare that you see one of our cars modded
 

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K-DOG said:
The reason is, drive both. The Toyota 3.0 NA engone is not nearly as fun to drive. Response, sound, torque curve, powerband etc....I agree about the aftermarket, but it is a JAPANESE car, thats the difference. In japan people are crazy over aftermarket parts, and almost any japanese car will have huge aftermarket support. If people could get BMW's "en masse" in japan, we'd see a lot more parts/kits/etc.

BTW I don't buy the lack of engine bay space comment. Have you seen the e36 engine bay? Have you seen the AA stage 2 turbo kits making 450hp? Notice they mounted the turbos UNDER the car. Anything is possible, just depends on the demand, and on how much the tuner is willing to spend for R&D.

PS. I also don't know what people are complaining about BMW's not being responsive to mods. IMO, 12+RWHP for just an intake(gruppe M) is pretty damn good. With exhaust, throttle body, and differential, you can make your car much faster for about 2grand without going FI.
I wasn't aware that they bolt the turbo under the car. Any pics of the configuration? I've heard of the 600 and 800 horsepower club of E36 M3's, and have seen some videos of them in action. Truly impressive.
 

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I honestly think that you should compare the engines in the following order:

M50b25 vs. M50tu25 vs. M52tu25 vs M54B25 vs 1JZ for 2.5 liters
M52tu30 vs M54B30 vs 2JZ for 3.0 liters

All i know it's that the BMW blocks are great blocks, just like the Toyota 2JZ. But their weakness lies in the VANOS heads and/or valvetrain for high-performance. One thing that they did it's improve responsiveness for stock or mild performance, but weak for very high-performance. Just like their M5 V8's engines in DTM M3, stock blocks but they use non-VANOS heads on them =) I honestly think the old M50 (92-93) non-vanos heads are better for high performance, less parts to break as compared to VANOS type. If they use the VANOS head, they disable it & set both CAM timings in 0 position if they use the VANOS head for racing.

I'm not sure if the new M54 blocks are Nickasil or Alusil bores thou? But, I'm sure if someone build a Inline 6 BMW with the right combination & tuning, they can achieve the similar or close performance as what those Japanese 2JZGTE or RB26DETT. I.e.: th M1 6cyl block was close to the F1 blocks of that era that made +1000hp.
 

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Great info K-Dog & M54B25!

K-Dog, that setup is insane. Never seen anything like that. Looking at the wastegate by the tranny. Impressive! I bet they spent a sh-tload on R&D!
 

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if you look @ the dyno charts of the IS300 and the M54, you'll see that the M54, like most BMW engines have very flat torque curve, which in return gives you the ability to "drive" the car to its potential as oppose to the IS300 engine.

It is very true that the Vanos is a major reason for the lack of upgradability of our engines, but consider the positive aspects: millage, performance, emissions... it's not something designed for the track, but something designed for the daily driver.
 

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i actually raced this dude in his is300 he has the manual and i ahve a manual 325.. no engine mods (both of us)

and i beat him the first time. but very little, and then the next time he beat me by vry little too, and then i beat him 3rd time. also by very little

it was mostly a drivers skill..
 

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K-DOG said:
In japan people are crazy over aftermarket parts, and almost any japanese car will have huge aftermarket support. If people could get BMW's "en masse" in japan, we'd see a lot more parts/kits/etc.
BS, most turbo kits and other performance parts sold in the US for the IS and Supras are made in the USA. I think the reason there aren't any hardcore engine upgrades for BMWs is because most owners are older and like to keep the engine completly stock. Supra owners are much younger and are willing to ruin their engines so companies make parts for them. How many of you would actually put a turbo kit in your BMW, void all warranty, risk having to buy a new engine every 10K mi, and have the headache of making sure everything is running just right? I'm a hardcore hp freak and I wouldn't do that to my E46.
 

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RX7 said:


BS, most turbo kits and other performance parts sold in the US for the IS and Supras are made in the USA. I think the reason there aren't any hardcore engine upgrades for BMWs is because most owners are older and like to keep the engine completly stock. Supra owners are much younger and are willing to ruin their engines so companies make parts for them. How many of you would actually put a turbo kit in your BMW, void all warranty, risk having to buy a new engine every 10K mi, and have the headache of making sure everything is running just right? I'm a hardcore hp freak and I wouldn't do that to my E46.
Not bs....where do you think most US companies steal their ideas from? Almost any new performance product for a Japanese car(at least this USED to be the case until very recently) came out in Japan first. Everything that came out for your RX7 was out in JAPAN first. Case and point, twin turbo for the 350z....Didn't see any american companies come out with that? Gruppe M intake, ooh whats that? Rd Sport intake.....sure looks very similar to the one made in Japan(ie Gruppe M). Veilside body kits......hmmm 100 American companies trying to immitate the same thing....

PS. The IS is an exception b/c it has a totally different engine in Japan. Im sure you know it has a 2.0, and its called the Altezza.
BTW who makes like 90% of the turbos for the Supras, the IS, your RX7....sure as hell isn't the US. Hmmm Apexi, Greddy, HKS....where are they from? Oh thats right, JAPAN.:thumbup:
 

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Bmw are the most tuned veichles in the world. Didn't say the easiest to mod or get power from. Check out how many tuning companys ther are for bmws, for example schnitzer, hartge etc..
And it is true the vanos has sometimes been a problem when taking alot of power out of bmw engines. All european e36 m3s sold in germany under the period 96-98 had their vanoses changed by bmw goodwill. They had the rolls royce vanos which was no good now all bmws use sachs vanos which is muuuch better. And already 20 years ago bmw made a block which you can take as much power out from as a supra engine it is called m10 used in the e30, and in f1 racing (approx 1000hp) and in the e30 m3 as the s14. What did toyota make 20years ago...:dunno: :)
 

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K-DOG said:


Not bs....where do you think most US companies steal their ideas from? Almost any new performance product for a Japanese car(at least this USED to be the case until very recently) came out in Japan first. Everything that came out for your RX7 was out in JAPAN first. Case and point, twin turbo for the 350z....Didn't see any american companies come out with that? Gruppe M intake, ooh whats that? Rd Sport intake.....sure looks very similar to the one made in Japan(ie Gruppe M). Veilside body kits......hmmm 100 American companies trying to immitate the same thing....

PS. The IS is an exception b/c it has a totally different engine in Japan. Im sure you know it has a 2.0, and its called the Altezza.
BTW who makes like 90% of the turbos for the Supras, the IS, your RX7....sure as hell isn't the US. Hmmm Apexi, Greddy, HKS....where are they from? Oh thats right, JAPAN.:thumbup:
Yes BS:D US companies stole Japanese tuner's ideas years back but with all the parts out on the market now and how big modifying engines are getting in the US do you really think it takes Japan to release an intake system for someone in the US to copy? I don't think so, I think we're smart enough to make our own though Japan comes up with crazy ideas at times. I mean what are we actually talking about here to make an engine have more power? Air, spark, and fuel right? We're not talking about new body kits, wheels, or nice headlights here. We're talking about building hp. The basics are there, someone just has to come and make the parts

BTW, it's not like a US company didn't build a turbo kit for the 350Z. It's been done. But the thing you have to understand is that the 350 has only been here for what 8months? How long have Japanese tuners had there hand on one?


Turbo kits for RX7's? The most popular kits for the 3rd gen RX7's are ones made by US companies. Go to the RX7 forums and you will see rarely anyone running HKS, Greddy, or Apexi turbos.
 
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