Hey guys! Haven't posted on here in years haha. Just had a quick question, the title really says it all.



Basically I have a personal E46 M3 that I use everyday, but I also just got another E46 M3 that I plan on turning into a track only car. It's going to take a long time, lot of work and $$$. I am trying to build myself basically a "build plan" on what to do with it.



As far as exhausts go, definitely going to go with catless headers for the performance gain. I know that Stepped headers are supposed to be even more of a performance gain over non-stepped headers, so eventually down the road I plan on getting SS Stepped headers, but because theyre so expensive, for now I will probably get either Euro headers, SGT, AP or Fabspeed since they are reasonably priced and have excellent reviews. I actually have SGT headers on my daily M3 and love them.



I'm going to leave the midpipes stock for now since performance wise changing them wouldn't do much, I'll probably get an X-Pipe eventually.



Muffler/section 3 I'm going to do straight pipe, no muffler.



Anyways. In regards to headers, is there really a sound difference between different brands? Or does most of the tone and volume change in an exhaust from the midpipes and muffler.



If I have OEM Midpipes and a SuperSprint Race muffler for example, and I get SuperSprint Stepped headers, will that sound different than the exact same setup but with Fabspeed headers instead? Or AP headers instead?



Thanks in advance guys!



P.S. Sad to hear about M3forum going down hopefully it goes back up somehow, tons of great knowledge over there from the years.

Get Megan Racing headers. Save yourself $700 for headers that many of us have bought and have near perfect fitment. That way you can focus on other mods. They should be about $250 and they are solid. There's literally a 100+ page thread on them on M3forum. We determined them to be good and if their is a defect, Megan Racing will fix it. Sound wise, headers will mostly sound the same but better flowing ones will probably be a bit loud and slightly different tone.

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Oh wow I had no clue they were that affordable... also having "Racing" in the name definitely is a good sign :lmao:

Saving money by getting those headers instead of the $800 plus ones I've been looking at would be huge for me. One day when I have the money I'll get the stepped SS headers for the performance advantage but not anytime soon.

I mostly want to just know how much the sound actually changes amongst all these headers. Like theoretically if I get this Megan Racing header, keep the midpipes stock, and delete the muffler, would it sound the same as if I got Fabspeed headers instead (with oem midpipes and muffler deleted again)? And if so, by how much? Only a suuuper slight sound difference? Or fairly noticeable. Is it more-so the volume that changes or the tone?

Thanks!

 

Both megan and the "other $800" ones are replicas made in Asia.

$ would be better spent on $550-600 oe bmw euro headers unless you can make the step up to supersprint stepped.

The sound does change, much louder and harsher now that you'd be catless (not talking about section 1 yet). There's also a sound difference between the euro design which stock headers have, csl have and megan racing/AA copied. The other popular design is supersprint long tube (not stepped) that AP, fabspeed, evosport, jvt, m3an one, SGT all copied.

The OE design is raspier and more frantic. The long tube design is more muscular, deeper, but calmer not as frenetic as euro.

I have videos capturing both sounds, with various combos of midpipes and muffler, on my youtube channel not to mention all of the e46 m3 videos on there that you can check out.

Keep in mind, the supersprint design sounds better to bystanders than the driver where as euro design sounds better behind the wheel. By better I mean more of a motorsport/race sound. It's still subjective tho. Either way, removing cats will make things louder and harsher sounding. Resonators can be added to calm it back down of you want to be catless otherwise relocate cats to sect 1 pipes.

 

Both megan and the "other $800" ones are replicas made in Asia.

$ would be better spent on $550-600 oe bmw euro headers

Why? The "genuine" bandwagon doesn't really matter(normally it does) in this case except in price. He will be spending more for Euro headers. I'm about genuine parts, don't get me wrong, but Megan Racing headers work. Why spend more? They aren't cheap garbage. I know from personal experience and so do many others.

What I'm saying only applies to these headers, not other Chinese crap or Megan Racing products. These specific ones turned out to be good. They fit, they flow, and they're actually made of real stainless steel. Spending more isn't the best answer if you'll be putting SS headers on later.


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If you plan on getting stepped headers down the road, get euro headers. They're cheap, fitment is great, and are just as good as every other Asian header knock off brand. Most of the other (Cheaper) brands use the same / a similar architecture as the euro headers, so performance & sound shouldn***8217;t very too much. My car has euro headers & 400 cell cats moved to the section 1 because the car is my daily, so sound pretty much remained the same...however if you go full catless the sound will change pretty dramatically, especially muffler delete haha.

 

Whether the first set of designs (CSL, Euro, AA) sound different or the same as the third set (Fabspeed, Megan, AP, SGT, etc.), I think it's safe to say that it'd make the most sense to buy the cheapest within each style. So if I choose design style #3, I'd get Megan because its the cheapest in the group (cheaper than Fabspeed and the rest), but has the same sound and performance as them. If I choose to get headers from design group #1, I'd get Euro because (I think) its the cheapest of that group (cheaper than CSL and AA) but the same performance and sound as those.

Or, I'm totally wrong in all of this lol.

EDIT: Yeah I messed up here too. Megan is actually with the first group (CSL, Euro, AA) and not the 3rd group (Fabspeed, AP, SGT, etc.). If that's the case, then in this post what I actually would've concluded is that I should buy Megan instead of CSL or Euro or AA if I choose a header from design group #1 because its the cheapest but they all perform and sound the same. If I choose a header from design group #3 (Fabspeed, AP, SGT, etc.) I'd just pick the cheapest one there since those all sound and perform the same.

 

Supersprint tubulare (which SGT AP and the others copy) makes slightly more power than euro headers. That's why euro guys and CSLs upgrade to them, if not stepped. Also ask yourself why Supersprint would make a header that made no more power than stock (euro) header.

Now, does a replica like SGT makes that extra bit of power as well? Maybe, not sure suppose it depends on how perfect a copy they make?

Euro headers are a great choice because it's OE quality and fitment, the price isn't bad, and you can easily recoup the $ upon resale.

 

Thats a fair point, especially with the supersprint question you ask.

So SGT, AP, Fabspeed, etc. all probably make the same power, all make less than SuperSprint Stepped, but all make slightly more than Megan/AA/Euro/CSL.

That makes sense logically to me.

Performance:
Best-SS Stepped, Epic Stepped, CPI Stepped
Better-SS Non-Stepped, SGT, AP, Fabspeed, aFe Power Race
Good-Euro/CSL, Megan, AA
Normal-OEM USA Headers

Price:
SS Stepped-$2,000
Epic Stepped-$2,000
SS Non-Stepped-$1,915
aFe Power Race Series-$1,800
Fabspeed-$1,200
Euro/CSL-$1,200
CPI Stepped-$1,000
SGT-$850
AP-$850
AA-$700
Megan-$296

Apparently "JVT, M3ANONE, Dixis, Evosport, Friedrich, Kromer Kraft, & Race Marquee" are discontinued or unavailable so I'm going to ignore those from now on.

Definitely interesting to note all the Design style #1 headers are cheaper than the Design style #3 ones, and design style #2 are the most expensive. Kinda reinforces the idea that performance is the lowest in style 1, most in style 2.

My question at this point really is more of, how much different do they all sound from each other.

I've tried youtube videos but its tough to find setups where the midpipes and muffler are the same and only the headers change, and even when I do find those videos, they don't really do the sound justice. That's why I'm reaching out to you guys to hear first person experiences you've had

 

It's so hard to describe sound. Actually the description might not be the hardest, but having another person understand how you mean it, is difficult. You can also accomplish things in another way.

Let say you don't like rasp, but you already have euro headers and don't want to swap them, you could get a resonated X pipe sect 2 to kill rasp or a "rasp" pipe sect 1 (with or without cats).

Something else I thought of: The Megans and AA might not be quite as raspy or "buzzy" if the metal used is thicker than OE BMW. I notice the metal on Chinese headers is pretty thick and heavy and I bet that manifests in a slightly different (subdued) sound. I think what makes the euro and CSL headers (have even thinner metal I believe to weigh less) sound the way they do is partly down to the metal just like how a CSL airbox can sound slightly different depending on material and manufacture.

For someone like me who loves rasp, I think CSL headers with straight pipe sect 1, CSL sect 2 & 3 would be motorsport heaven (at least sound-wise).

For the opposite, long tube or replica headers, rasp pipe or x pipe sect 2 and then muffler based on preference would give you completely different sound and probably the sound that is best when watching videos. I never think raspy setups sound good in video or outside the car, but I believe they sound best behind the wheel.

 

I agree sound is hard to explain and also super subjective. So no pressure haha, I'm not expecting like concrete factual statements. I really just want to hear a bunch of opinions so I can get a rough idea of the sounds of all these headers.

I have heard of Rasp Pipes and adding resonators as solutions to rasp. I have a resonated section 2 x pipe on my personal m3. So that's definitely a solid solution for fine tuning sound. The thing is, at the end of the day this is a racecar not my personal car, so I'm probably going to leave the midpipes stock since changing them wont change the performance much really.

And so as far as metal construction goes, thinner metals are lighter which is better for performance, but would result in a theoretically raspier sound? Which is why oem/csl is raspier than most?

Personally I think I'm more of a fan of going against rasp. Its tough though because, for me, rasp sounds not great on an e46, but I enjoy the rasp on an e92. It's all very opinion based for sure.

Overall, the raspier, more affordable, sliiightly less powerful design #1 options such as AA, Megan, and Euro/CSL are seeming less appealing to me than the design #3 options of more expensive, sliiightly more powerful, less raspy sounding fabspeed and ap and sgt etc.

Then again, price does matter.

I'm going to have to do some research into all of these brands on youtube and hopefully hear some results to come up with what I really want. I'm glad I'm understanding this all a lot better now though! Thank you very much for your input man!

 

Current Header Info I believe so far to be true

Performance:
Best-SS Stepped, Epic Stepped, CPI Stepped
Better-SS Non-Stepped, SGT, AP, Fabspeed, aFe Power Race
Good-Euro/CSL, Megan, AA
Normal-OEM USA Headers

Price:
SS Stepped-$2,000
Epic Stepped-$2,000
SS Non-Stepped-$1,915
aFe Power Race Series-$1,800
Fabspeed-$1,200
Euro/CSL-$1,200
CPI Stepped-$1,000
SGT-$850
AP-$850
AA-$700
Megan-$296

Sound
Raspy Loud Screamers: Euro/CSL
Slightly less raspy due to thicker metal, but still Raspy Loud Screamers: Megan Racing, AA
Muscular Deeper Beasts: SS Non-Stepped, SGT, AP, Fabspeed, aFe Power Race
Best of both worlds: SS Stepped, Epic Stepped, CPI Stepped

Does this all seem reasonable to assume? Anything youd change?

Lastly, do headers within each sound group sound different from each other? Like does a Fabspeed header and AP header sound the same? Or different?

 

Some of what I've posted is conjecture, so I wouldn't quite call it true exactly. It's just my experiences, observations and deductions.

Maybe some of the reps of supersprint do vary slightly from set to set, I'm not sure. And I'm not sure what, if any, change in sound there'd be due to small differences in pipe diameter, routing, material, thickness, etc.

I went from euro headers to AP to SS stepped in like the span of a month, both having and not having cats in the midpipes so I feel like I have good experience. I've also installed 6 (stock plus 5) different mufflers (og scorza, dinan, ss sport, Meisterschaft ti, sgt scza) on my car, some with different headers.

When it comes to this car and probably a many other things in life, I've never learned more than when I've tried something for myself. Take 4.10s for example. The pros and cons are well documented. I felt I was perfectly fine with the cons. Turns out, I didn't like 4.10s, but not for any of the reasons (cons) that people talked about. No way I would have known if I didn't try.

You could, of course, skip all the guessing, and just buy the best headers out there and be done - SS stepped v1 + SS "s pipes" 2.5". Of course that only solves the first 2 sections, you still would need to know how/which sect 2 & 3 will get the sound you want.

Then there's the other argument, that this car just doesn't sound that great or at least it's very hard to get just right, so fuk it and just focus on the one sound this car does better than literally anything you'll come across on the roads- the induction ala CSL airbox.

 

Fair enough, and there definitely could be small changes in sound from those small differences you mentioned like pipe diameter. I wish I could just buy them all and see for myself :lmao:

I wish I could go SS Stepped to start but the problem is like you said, to fit it id need that SS section 1 as well, and thats just way too pricey overall at the moment for me.

I do like the sound of this car so I'm not tooooo worried about my decision here, I'm sure I'd be pretty happy with any path I take.

CSL Airbox I would love but, isnt that like 2k plus also? And does it reallyyyy do that much to the sound? I feel like with a loud exhaust, the exhaust would overpower the sound from the airbox and you would barely notice it

Side note, why didn't you like the 4.1? For this race car I'm trying to decide which I want to go with as well, leave it stock, get a 4.1, or even shorter like a 3.62. I honestly am not sure what the smartest would be for the track (the track I'll be racing on are fairly short, good amount of turns, lack of long straights. Thats why I kind of figured I should get the 4.1)

 

For my set up, sound wise I love it. I have stock sec 1 and 2, Megan headers, and GruppeM exhaust. Ti has an interesting sound versus steel. I think I prefer it, it just cracks and welds are much more brittle. My car sounds like trash below 3500rpm. I jave a video that sort of lets you hear it but my friends phone really sucked... iPhones...

Here's the link. It kind of muffles the screaming of the engine but is probably the best video I got.
https://youtu.be/jv54_wxcu9Q

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Thanks for the input! I do wish I had a better example, it's tough to hear in that video. I'll have to do some research! Megan headers, stock midpipes and Gruppe M Ti sounds like it would be a ridiculously loud setup haha

 

Side note, between these mufflers, can someone tell me if they'd agree with this order of loudest to quietest?

Loudest at top, quietest at bottom (all of these are on the louder side of the muffler scale, so even the quietest is still pretty loud I believe)
Bimmerworld Race
Gruppe M
SuperSprint Race
AP Titanium
SGT V1
Rogue Engineering El Diablo
SGT Scorza

 

In a few weeks I'll drop my engine in and get a better video.

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Thanks!

 

I can***8217;t see that it***8217;s been mentioned yet, but if you're looking at ALL of the options, don't forget about the 6-1 long tube, catted headers available from American Racing. A more expensive option, but is a good fit for someone who wants to run a lighter exhaust like the Bimmerworld race (and be emissions compliant).

The sound from these headers is quite similar to the SGT / AP group.

https://youtu.be/rFf8XSgARjw

Also, if it hasn't been mentioned yet, you could run the rogue engineering section 2 with the included electric cutout. This would give you the option of keeping your factory muffler and then just opening the section 2 up when you want to set off alarms in the parking garage.

 

I can't see that it's been mentioned yet, but if you're looking at ALL of the options, don't forget about the 6-1 long tube, catted headers available from American Racing. A more expensive option, but is a good fit for someone who wants to run a lighter exhaust like the Bimmerworld race (and be emissions compliant).

The sound from these headers is quite similar to the SGT / AP group.

https://youtu.be/rFf8XSgARjw

Also, if it hasn't been mentioned yet, you could run the rogue engineering section 2 with the included electric cutout. This would give you the option of keeping your factory muffler and then just opening the section 2 up when you want to set off alarms in the parking garage.

Thanks for the suggestion! Wow that setup does sound really good man, I'm blown away considering it still has cats! I dont think I'll end up doing this because the car will be only driven on the track so I'm not worried about passing emissions, so going catless would be cheaper and better performing for me, and also I just looked online and found them for sale catless but they're definitely expensive haha. So I think I'd be better off getting one of the other header options and saving the money for elsewhere on the car. Appreciate the response though!

 

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCVYyKThQKGQ7mF5wAYK3SGw

 

thank you. nice videos:thumbup:

 

The rasp is awful with those ARH headers. Maybe I just haven't heard an M3 in a while. The CSL sounds awesome though

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Why does the sound matter on a track car ?

 

I can't speak for any of the other header options but I do enjoy my AAs. It's louder, deeper, and more muscular. It's also more raspy (specially when cold), presumably due to it being louder in general. This is with the cats moved to section 1 but no other mods to the exhaust. The fit was good and they look good. Between the headers and the tune I installed shortly after I'm sure it's making more power (according to the butt dyno anyway). How much, I don't know. I do know that I prefer the sound over stock.

 

I have Megan Racing headers which are literally AA's without the price tag, better customer service and immediate shipping time. Oh and they fix bad fitment. Now that I got my AA bashing out of the way, you probably gained almost 10 whp with nothing else. They sound is really throaty with the headers by themselves. My initial start up before my tune or GruppeM Sec 3 was very surprising. The rasp was pretty bad but I also didn't keep cats.

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I have the eBay Megan headers. I haven***8217;t put them on yet, so I can***8217;t comment on fitment. But The quality is top notch. I can***8217;t imagine aa or anything else being way better. These do not feel cheap at all, very sturdy and solid. Also comes with an extra bung for a wideband. Nice little touch too with the logo plate thing. I***8217;d say go with these. Under $300, you can***8217;t beat it.

 

thank you. nice videos:thumbup:
kim klacik wiki

 

I bought my car with: stock US headers, AR20 resonator added to section 1, aftermarket section 2 with no H or X cross in it, AA section 3. It sounded pretty good, but I wanted cheap horsepower, so I swapped in megan headers and now it sounds like complete shit. I'm looking to replace the section 2 and maybe swap in a stock section 3 to quiet the car down.

Also, I lost both spare o2 bungs even though I torqued them to the same spec as the o2 sensors. If your not going to use them, then I'd suggest red loctite on them before you try and fish a new bung up there while in the car.

Also II.... replace the CPI valve o-ring while you have the headers off!