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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
Hello

I have a problem with my car. For some time already I have a P1193 code, I tried to find out what might be a cause but so far no luck.

Things that I thought might be bad or were bad and were replaced:
-MAF - now running on used maf from e39
-spark plugs
-valve cover gasket
-distick o-ring
-cvv
-intake gasket - while intake was off the car i checked all vacuum tubing for cracks, no problems there
-smoke test - no leaks
-idle control valve
-plugged second air pump to engine thingie to see if diaphragm is leaking - no problem there.
-plugged vacuum hoses that go to exhaust flap
-fuel pump
-ignition coils
-fuel filter less than 60k miles ago
-both o2 sensors for bank 2

I still have high fuel trims, I have no idea where else to look.

Attached are pdf diagrams with torque pro logs, rpm vs maf vs stft vs ltft.

From what I noticed, after long ride at highway speeds = 3k rpm+, ltft for bank 2 drops to about 8-9. which is still high.

I also have another problem. When I drive hard - 4.5k-5k rpm + engine goes into limp mode. Could this all be caused by clogged cats?

Please help, attached are graphs for your review as well as coma separated values log, with graphs on Sheet 2.

Thanks in advance,
Jaro
 

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Need to know what year your 330 is.

Also would like to see Fuel Trims as warm idle for 1 minute. Also post Freeze Frame info as well.

If you search my signature, need to record the O2 sensors assuming they are older narrow band sensors, pre-2004 as I recall??

Also if you have the original MAF, please put it back on after you gather the initial info then see if the old MAF makes any difference.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 · (Edited)
Car is 2001, manufactured in October 2000.

I will provide you with data later today.

Original MAF died on me few months ago, I then bought two used mafs (two for 50, could not refuse) off of 530 e39. Same part number as original maf, both functioning in same way.
I forgot to mention but in the mean time I also replaced both oxygen sensors for bank 2, front and rear, it did not make much of a difference...and fuel pump....fuel pump was also replaced. Original fuel filter replaced 50k miles ago.
 

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MAF for the 330 is critical for performance and they are $$$ for the correct one.

Although you replaced O2 sensors, you may not know the cars history.

Someone may have screwed up and installed the O2 sensors in the wrong spot??

Suggest you graph the O2 sensors specifically AND, disconnect a single sensor at a time and see what sensor triggers a code and/or stops reporting and make sure things are configured properly./

I have even cars where one bank of O2 sensors have the pre and post cat sensors plugged into each other and the car harness plugged into itself.

Assume nothing is done correctly in order to move forward.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 · (Edited)

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Eeeeyyyeee, I am not sure what I am seeing here??

So my initial thought is this, the O2 sensors are all wired backwards, but I have be careful to jump to this conclusion yet. We may need more testing to determine what is going on.

The warm up signature for ALL O2 sensors on these cars is a deep "V" for precat O2 sensors and a shallow "V" for the postcat sensors within the first 6- seconds on cold start.

See this link - http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showpost.php?p=16237779&postcount=34

What is the history on this car?? Do you know if it looks like the O2 sensor wiring was hacked up or if the O2 sensors were "universal" with crimp connectors??

Your "V" are all upside down.

Need to figure out if this is an O2 sensor wiring issue or something wrong with the colds start cycle on the engine due the Fuel Trims being so high.

Here is a 50 seconds shot of your cold start - https://www.dropbox.com/s/35ui6omr5bfp6t1/Cold Start O2 sensors 50 seconds.jpg

Please download and attach it in this thread, I am out of attachment space.
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
lszlszx - Disa was replaced some time ago (two years maybe?) due to leaky diaphragm. I replaced it with a used unit, scooped out old flatten o-ring and replaced with a fresh one. I think it works as it should.

Bank 1 sensors are original BMW sensors - or I would have to unscrew them and check to be 100% sure.

Bank 2 sensors are original OEM Bosch units from Advance Auto Parts.

Wiring does not look hacked, it looks original as well.
 

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Bank 1 sensors are original BMW sensors - or I would have to unscrew them and check to be 100% sure.

Bank 2 sensors are original OEM Bosch units from Advance Auto Parts.

Wiring does not look hacked, it looks original as well.
Does the SAP work?

What is the status of the Emission Readiness Codes?

Is the SES/CEL/MIL on?

Have you cleared the codes?

How does the engine idle?

What happens if you let the engine idle for 4-5 minutes?

Something is not right here and I think if we can pinpoint it, things will come back into line.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 · (Edited)
Just came back from garage, front O2 sensors are in correct location, rear sensors were mismatched. I put them in correct plugs and recorded idle fuel trims.
PDF, with plot attached, excel workbook here: https://www.dropbox.com/s/7joyg21lwfjld36/Warm idle fuel trims after fixing rear O2 sensors.xlsx

During a cold start SAP is buzzing which leads me to believe that it is pumping air into the system - I could try to disconnect it before colt start and confirm if it is blowing air. Some time ago I plugged valve with diaphragm with a cap to see if it makes any difference but it did not affect warm idle or driving, just SAP codes and rougher cold start.

Emission readiness I will check tmrw.

CEL - only P1193

I cleared codes after I figured out locations of O2 sensors. Before it was only P1193 - which just does not want to quit.
Like I mentioned before, when I push the car over 4.5k rpm's for more than few seconds it goes into limp mode and gets all misfires on all cylinders, what I usually do next is to switch ignition off/on for 2-3 seconds while driving and everything goes back to normal, but it looks like the car still runs in 'safe mode' as it no longer reports fuel trims on the reader.

Engine idles kind of rught - not like a Honda, it keeps idle steady, no dying like when you have problems with idle control valve. It seems to me it lacks power when it gets moving from a standstill - engine sometimes shakes, rpm's dip. It was like this since I can remember. Because of this I also replaced clutch and engine/transmission mounts, nothing helped.

If I let it idle for prolonged periods of time nothing happens. It doesn't die.

One more thing if it helps, it has about 135k miles, Vanos seals were replaced with BEISAN o-rings.

If necessary, I could do a cylinder compression check within next few days as well.
 

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No need to go after a compression test at this point.

How did you determine the read O2 sensor wiring was crossed?

What is kind of alarming is the are no P0171/0174 codes with the Fuel Trims I am seeing.

I think for now, since the codes were cleared is to monitor the Emission Readiness Monitors.

If the SAP is working the SAP Readiness Monitor should clear in the 1st or 2nd cold start.

Just be cause the SAP motor is running does not mean the SAP air is getting to the exhaust. The large SAP output hoses crack and the small vacuum line on the SAP Kombi valve breaks along the valve cover. If there is the small, hard plastic line along the valve cover, it is probably all cracked and broken.

The O2 sensor signature on cold start is not right, something unusual is wrong here.

May have to drive the car a few days/week to see if anything changes due to the post cat O2 sensors.
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 · (Edited)
How did you determine the read O2 sensor wiring was crossed?
I had car running with torque pro displaying O2 sensor data live, when I unplugged a sensor and a readout become a steady line I knew which sensor I disconnected, thats how I matched which is which.
Then for the rear O2 sensors, the one closer to the engine is bank1sensor2, the one farther is bank2sensor2. They were mismatched so I plugged them in correct locations on the harness.

What is kind of alarming is the are no P0171/0174 codes with the Fuel Trims I am seeing.
I used to have these codes but they went away after I fixed dipstick o-ring, idle control valve or broken F-connector on intake boot. I don't remember seeing these recently.

I think for now, since the codes were cleared is to monitor the Emission Readiness Monitors.
I will most likely have an answer to this tomorrow as I need to go for a longer drive.

Just be cause the SAP motor is running does not mean the SAP air is getting to the exhaust. The large SAP output hoses crack and the small vacuum line on the SAP Kombi valve breaks along the valve cover. If there is the small, hard plastic line along the valve cover, it is probably all cracked and broken.
I checked SAP's thick pipe for cracks, it has cracks but it does not leak air, I tried blowing in it, no air leaking. The vacuum tubing that activates sap was replaced with vacuum silicone tubing at the time I replaced intake manifold gasket, along with other vacuum hoses in that area, except for vacuum jet pump which i tried blowing through, one way worked while the other did not, so the silicone valves in that valve work.

I actually smoke tested this whole sap/vacuum actuator/intake line as I also thought this might be a problem, I do not know how the vacuum actuator works but during cold start it should probably be open and suck air to open SAP valve diaphragm, at warm engine it should probably be closed to keep diaphragm closed.

May have to drive the car a few days/week to see if anything changes due to the post cat O2 sensors.
I have access to a laptop with INPA on it, and could reset adaptations if necessary, this usually delays P1193 code by about 40 miles of driving - when LTFT 'skyrockets' - goes above 9...

One more thing, I forgot attach Freeze frame for P1193, here it is
 

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I had car running with torque pro displaying O2 sensor data live, when I unplugged a sensor and a readout become a steady line I knew which sensor I disconnected, thats how I matched which is which.
Then for the rear O2 sensors, the one closer to the engine is bank1sensor2, the one farther is bank2sensor2. They were mismatched so I plugged them in correct locations on the harness.
Sounds good, maybe you picked this up from some off my comments on other threads? but this is a wise thing to do.


I used to have these codes but they went away after I fixed dipstick o-ring, idle control valve or broken F-connector on intake boot. I don't remember seeing these recently.
Is is possible that the Emission Readiness Monitors are not clearing and when this happens, many times other OBVIOUS problems do not trigger the SES/CEL/MIL.

This is why I specifically want to watch the Emission Readiness Monitors.
 

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A few more comments.

1. In the attached Freeze Frame info, I see the Engine Coolant Temp was around 170F but the Vehicle Speed was 59 MPH. How long has the engine been running, how far had the car been driven?

This appears to be a bit unusual. Engine should hit 205F within about 5 minutes or about 4-5 miles at the most. These engine warm up quickly. Unless you were able to start the car and almost enter a highway, I would closely monitor the Engine Coolant Temp for a while.

2. Engine warmed up, while recording the O2 Sensor Voltage, add in at least the STFT;s, remove the oil fill cap for 30 seconds so we can see how the O2 sensors react. This may give some more insight or allow some things to be ruled out.
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 · (Edited)
1. In the attached Freeze Frame info, I see the Engine Coolant Temp was around 170F but the Vehicle Speed was 59 MPH. How long had the engine been running, how far had the car been driven?
I have a highway 30 seconds from where I park my car. I start it up, two minutes later I am on a highway. It was driven for less than a mile from a reset.

Normal driving temperature ranges from 199 to 209 degree Fahrenheit, I was monitoring today as I had to do 120 miles.

2. Engine warmed up, while recording the O2 Sensor Voltage, add in at least the STFT;s, remove the oil fill cap for 30 seconds so we can see how the O2 sensors react. This may give some more insight or allow some things to be ruled out.
Smart move, this would show up how engine reacts to unmeasured air after air intake, correct? I will do it later today.

In a mean time, this morning I did another Cold start O2 sensor test.
Results are here:https://www.dropbox.com/s/nmqi6yxf5...O2 test, after fixing mismatched rear O2.xlsx

Looks like fixing mismatched O2 sensors changed the initial V from upside down to normal.

Also, Emission status attached. Done right after 120 mile drive. Surprisingly, no P1193 code yet, or any code as a matter of fact.
 

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Need to know what year your 330 is.

Also would like to see Fuel Trims as warm idle for 1 minute. Also post Freeze Frame info as well.

If you search my signature, need to record the O2 sensors assuming they are older narrow band sensors, pre-2004 as I recall??

Also if you have the original MAF, please put it back on after you gather the initial info then see if the old MAF makes any difference.
Do you have a thread on how to use the torque app? For the life of me I can get everything to work but can not figure out how to get freeze frame data or data over time at all. I can see real time readings, but can't figure out how to do logs other than trip logging.
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
Do you have a thread on how to use the torque app? For the life of me I can get everything to work but can not figure out how to get freeze frame data or data over time at all. I can see real time readings, but can't figure out how to do logs other than trip logging.
Check my attachment for more info.
 

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I have a highway 30 seconds from where I park my car. I start it up, two minutes later I am on a highway. It was driven for less than a mile from a reset.

Normal driving temperature ranges from 199 to 209 degree Fahrenheit, I was monitoring today as I had to do 120 miles.
OK, this makes sense, just wanted to make sure this was possible to have such a low engine coolant temp at highway speeds. Not many of use can jump on the highway right away.

Smart move, this would show up how engine reacts to unmeasured air after air intake, correct? I will do it later today.

In a mean time, this morning I did another Cold start O2 sensor test.
Results are here:https://www.dropbox.com/s/nmqi6yxf5...O2 test, after fixing mismatched rear O2.xlsx

Looks like fixing mismatched O2 sensors changed the initial V from upside down to normal.

Also, Emission status attached. Done right after 120 mile drive. Surprisingly, no P1193 code yet, or any code as a matter of fact.
Well this is a new one for me. Seems strange that O2 sensor swapped could cause this behavior, but lets watch and see. The cold start graph from today looks pretty good overall.

Attached link here, please post it - https://www.dropbox.com/s/uchrzhyl4... O2 test, fixed mismatched rear O2 3 Mins.jpg

So what you may want to do is just watch the Fuel Trims and see of they pull back in and start to adapt this week. Depending on the driving it may take 1-2 weeks for things to adapt fully.

The STFT are negative in the Readiness Monitor Shot you posted and the LTFT are positive, so all things being equal, the LTFT should start to get pulled back toward 0.

I say drive it a week and give us an update.
 

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Do you have a thread on how to use the torque app? For the life of me I can get everything to work but can not figure out how to get freeze frame data or data over time at all. I can see real time readings, but can't figure out how to do logs other than trip logging.
Also check this link - http://e46fanatics.com/forum/showthread.php?p=16234217

Torque is a good tool, the user interface has too much hidden and is a bit clunky in my opinion. Takes about 15-20 minute playing with it to get at least a partial handle on how it works.

There are some bugs in the What PID's To Log where at times I have O2 sensors set to log and nothing is picked up. Just clear All PID's To Log, then add the O2 sensors back first, the RPM and maybe MPH.
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
Jfoj, I will do, I would really like these fuel trim values to go down to 0 or near 0, that would be fantastic. I will report in few days, in a mean time, i will try to log "2. Engine warmed up, while recording the O2 Sensor Voltage, add in at least the STFT;s, remove the oil fill cap for 30 seconds so we can see how the O2 sensors react. This may give some more insight or allow some things to be ruled out."

Thank you for your help, I really appreciate! :)
 
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