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Discussion Starter · #21 ·
Maybe I didn't run the correct report. I went to diagnostic and then the report tab and it started running different information. Once it was done I saved it. Was that not correct?

I added the new PID you requested but not before my cold start log. I unfortunately didn't stop like I thought I did so it ran longer.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/9rirujonxyxziu8/CSVLog_20161012_074904.csv?dl=0
 

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Diagnostic Report is in a HTML file format.

As mentioned, you either linked the .CSV file at start up, or did not save/upload the Diagnostic Report to DropBox.

You MUST upload or email the Diagnostic Report, at this moment, it will not be saved locally on the phone/table.

Are you running Android or iProducts?

From the cold start Log the SAP is not working, not working proper or the O2 sensor polarity is backwards.

Before we do anything else, I would like to see the Secondary Air Command Status when you start the car this afternoon after sitting.

What is the history on the Pre-cat O2 sensors? Were they replaced? Have the wires ever been spliced?
 

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Discussion Starter · #23 · (Edited)
I'm using Android.

I uploaded what I thought was the diag report. Can you please confirm how to run it?

I haven't replaced the o2 sensors so I'm not sure of their history.

If the pump isn't working from what you can see, do you think it could be the relay as mentioned in the thread?

My Indy shop mentioned my last pump wasn't working and that's what prompted the replacement.

I'll run a new log after work today with the new command added.

EDIT: This is the screen I used for the diag report.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/wkj0ule6sbh746y/Screenshot_20161012-090324.png?dl=0

When I have the car on and come to this screen, each item runs a report. After that I selected the three dots at the top right, share, upload to Dropbox. That's what I then linked.
 

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Discussion Starter · #24 · (Edited)
Nevermind, I found the diag file. It went to a different folder.

Here's all the info I think you requested this far:

Diagnosis HTML report:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/skteab1yqmib4jy/Diagnostic Report 2016-10-11.html?dl=0

Freeze Frame data:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/4ohw3kow95ryavg/Screenshot_20161011-120012.png?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/vqbex1f5bceccea/Screenshot_20161011-120022.png?dl=0

Cold start w/o secondary air command:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/9rirujonxyxziu8/CSVLog_20161012_074904.csv?dl=0

I put all the info into this one post to make it more convenient for you. I will run a new log after work cold start with the new command.
 

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From reviewing the cold start Log this morning, it does not appear the SAP system is functioning properly.

First things first we need to make sure the SAP is being commanded on by the DME, this is where the Command Secondary Air Status will be helpful. The Freeze Frame indicated that SAP was not commanded to be running, but this may be typical. I need to look at the Log to see if the DME is commanding the SAP system to run.

You may want to pop the hood before you start the engine and then get out and put your hand on the pump to see if you can feel and/or hear the pump running when your first start the car cold.

One other thing I noticed is your battery appears to be low. Cranking Voltage dropped to 10.6 while attempting to start the car, this is a bit low, I do not typically see the battery Voltage drop below 11.0 Volts when starting the engine. You may need to confirm the value is correct, but with the cold temps coming, I would have the battery properly tested and charged as needed.
 

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Discussion Starter · #26 · (Edited)
Battery is a few years old so it likely could be due for replacement soon so I'll keep that in mind.

When I first installed the pump prior to starting the car it operated. It feels like it's actually doing something. Though I was a bit confused at first when I tested my old pump and it worked and sounded the same as my new one, to find out that the Indy shop said it didn't. They said when they went to test it, it actually blew a breaker when they hooked it up.

I don't know if any of that info helps you but I thought I'd share.

Since the car will be cold when I get off work, I'll make a new log with the added command to see what that shows you.
 

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OK, this latest cold start Log was helpful.

The DME is in fact commanding the SAP system to run, but there is a problem with the SAP system or detecting that the SAP is running.

I see 3 basic problem areas.

1. Electrical. Fuse, relay, ground, wiring and so forth. Check fuses. Fuse #3, 20 Amp in the DME box, I think this is the center fuse in the fuse carrier. Fuse #36 in the glove box fuse panel, this is a large 50 Amp fuse in the center position on the left of the fuse box as I recall? The Black wire with the red and yellow tracer is the power feed to the SAP pump and will only be hot while the pump is running, usually the first 30-90 seconds at cold start. The relay could be a problem, but this is a PITA to get at and I would rule out the other simpler problems, to include vacuum problems first.

2. Vacuum. This is possible, but often even when the vacuum control is not working properly there is still air from the SAP that enters into the exhaust ports and it usually will show up on the O2 sensor graphing. This has to do with the vacuum controlled Kombi/Combi value that is mounted on the front of the cylinder head. Sometimes these valves can stick closed, but not often. The vacuum line along the valve cover breaks and the hoses and connections to the solenoid under the rear of the intake fail.

3. O2 sensor wiring polarity is backwards, not likely, but something to keep in the back of your head. If the O2 sensor were replaced, were the Bosch Direct Fit O2 sensors with the pre-assembled connector or was the old connector spliced from the original O2 sensors? I just went back and looked at the data a bit closer and I have decided that the problem is not with the Pre-cat O2 sensor wiring polarity, I can see the Post-Cat O2 sensor also have a slight rise due to the cold start enrichment so I can say with a good degree of certainty that #1 and #2 should be your focus. I would start with fuses as they are quick and easy to test and/or verify the SAP runs at cold start. Obviously if the pump runs at cold start, the fuses are good.

So see if you can hear, feel the SAP pump run. You might even disconnect the output hose and it should be pretty loud just blowing air.

The check electrical or vacuum controls depending on whether or not the pump runs.
 

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Discussion Starter · #29 ·
I can definitely hear and feel the pump run. I'm not sure how it should sound but it is doing something and it is vibrating. I'll check tomorrow how long it actually stays operating and will report back. Though if the pump does even do any type of activity, wouldn't that rule out the relay and even the fuses in this case?

As for the for the system:



I have replaced 1, 2, 3, 4, and 7. I have replaced the pump itself and the valve itself. I have also replaced one of the plugs in the rear but I cannot tell you which one.

This weekend I'm going to replace the large hose from the pump to the valve as it's showing some minor cracks, though I'm not sure how much that truly is affecting the system. When I take it off, I'll test the airflow from the pump to confirm it is indeed blowing air out into the valve.

Looking at my latest blog, the commander air status goes from 1 to 4. What do those numbers mean? What do you see that gives you indication of a problem with the SAP or detecting it's even running?
 

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If the pump is running and it is a new pump, then this rules out fuse and relay problems. But it never hurts to disconnect the pump hose and feel air blowing out of the pump. I think in my years I have seen everything!! Even found uel pumps wired backwards, so a SAP pump could be wired backwards and not pumping air out the outlet pipe! I take NOTHING for grated any more!

Now the next thing that can cause problems is the check valve (#6) being installed backwards and the the solenoid (#5) being plumbed wrong.

The solenoid (#5) can also be bad as well as the connection not be properly connected.

The easy way to sort this is get a vacuum pump, before the engine is started cold, apply vacuum to the Kombi/Combi valve (#1) and keep it open then start the engine and run the Log. If everything but the vacuum system is working properly the O2 sensors will track the SAP correctly and the SAP Readiness Monitor may actually clear.
 

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Discussion Starter · #31 ·
The p0491 and p0492 issue is something I've had since buying the car. I've put it on the back burner since it wasn't a major issue.

That being said, I honestly think the non-return valve (6) is likely installed correctly if never removed. I have a hunch it hasn't been.

You've mentioned the o2 sensors aren't detecting the SAP, am I understanding that correctly? If the pump is blowing air into the valve and the valve opens (it better since it's new oem), the vacuum is getting lost at either the solenoid or the non-return valve?
 

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I would start by disconnecting the pump output to make 100% sure the pump is blowing air, this is an single hose clamp connection.

Then see if you can borrow one of these from the local auto parts store, if not buy one as they are cheap enough to put a vacuum on the Kombi/Combi valve. This way you can rule in or out that the vacuum control is the problem.

https://www.amazon.com/American-Edu...6326939&sr=1-1&keywords=hand+vacuum+pump&th=1
 

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Discussion Starter · #33 ·
I'll pick up one of those pumps this weekend and will see.

Insert the pump by removing the large hose and insert it there? I haven't used one of those before and since I basically have one shot to use it each day I want to make sure I do it right the first time.
 

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You use the hand vacuum pump and connect it to the small nipple on #1, the Kombi/Combi valve. With everything except hose #4 connected, you just hook up the pump to the small nipple on #1, draw a vacuum on the valve, then start the engine. Valve #1 will be open and if the pump is running I will see the behavior on the Pre-cat O2 sensors.

But before you bother to purchase the hand pump, make sure the pump is running and ACTUALLY blowing air. To determine if the pump is running you do not need the vacuum pump, you just disconnect the large rubber hose from the output side of the pump.

Post a picture of the pump Kombi/Combi valve set up just so I can see if there is anything out of line.
 

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I'm pretty much in the same boat. I have a 2001 325i and I'm getting a p0491 and p0492 after replacing the pre-cat o2 sensors(before I was getting secondary air not ready). I have replaced the secondary air pump, all valves, and vacuum hoses. Not sure what to do next. The car runs great. Is there another vacuum line besides the two from the non return valve and air pump valve to the electric valve?
 

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I'm pretty much in the same boat. I have a 2001 325i and I'm getting a p0491 and p0492 after replacing the pre-cat o2 sensors(before I was getting secondary air not ready). I have replaced the secondary air pump, all valves, and vacuum hoses. Not sure what to do next. The car runs great. Is there another vacuum line besides the two from the non return valve and air pump valve to the electric valve?
Make sure the non return valve is installed correctly. I am pretty sure the black side of the valve is connected to the intake manifold vacuum.:loco:
 

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Yeah installed that correctly. I'm wondering if it has anything to do with an oil leak. I just had the oil filter housing gasket replaced and still need a pan gasket installed. Would this have anything to do with the codes?
 

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Not likely SAP codes unless there is a Lean condition that is masking what the Pre-cat O2 sensors can see on cold start.

Best to Log the OBDII data so we can see if the DME is even commanding the SAP system on and then if the O2 sensors are seeing the SAP run.

Suggest you start your own thread for this so it does not confuse this thread or get lost in this other problem.
 
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