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Old 11-17-2015, 11:29 AM   #21
Knight
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I have not yet installed the pre-cat sensors. Will take care of that first and then monitor the SAP.

There was a broken vacuum line that I bridged with a new piece of hose. Smoke test did not reveal any leaks in the area.
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Old 11-17-2015, 01:01 PM   #22
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The problem is if you do not know the history on the car, there is a SAP solenoid and small check valve under the rear of the intake. The hose from the intake to the check valve or solenoid can break and/or someone could have connected things wrong under the intake.

Check this picture - https://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthr...ghlight=intake
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Old 11-28-2015, 10:53 PM   #23
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Vacuum leak fixed and new 02 sensors installed. Car feels like it picked up 20hp. I was a little surprised at the rough condition of the original sensors and the fact that a SES code wasn't thrown.

Fuel pump will be ordered next and I will keep an eye out for SAP codes.
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Last edited by Knight; 11-28-2015 at 10:54 PM.
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Old 11-29-2015, 09:45 PM   #24
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SAP codes came back today. Oddly not during the early AM start (coldest and sitting overnight) but midday. No loss of performance.

On a separate note, I've been using Torque Pro but also downloaded OBD Fusion and pulled some MAF readings at idle and under load:



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Old 11-30-2015, 04:22 AM   #25
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I need MAF readings in g/s.

Also post Freeze Frame info for any codes that are triggered. Freeze Frame is very helpful.

I think you will find OBDFusion a bit easier to use overall.

Suggest you do my suggested data Logging.

Need 3 separate Logs. Each 4 minutes in length.

Cold start from overnight. Best to turn the ignition on and connect the App before starting the engine. Do not touch the throttle, do not drive the car.

Warm idle. 4 minutes stopped in Park or Neutral. Do not touch the throttle, AC and other accessories turned off.

Steady cruise. 45-65 MPH range, pick a speed and try to keep a steady throttle. Flat, straight road is best, use Cruise Control if possible.

With these 3 Logs I can tell a lot about what may be going on.

Read my comments in this thread about OBDFusion set up. Note that OBDFusion used to be called Touch Scan.

https://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=1080334
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Last edited by jfoj; 11-30-2015 at 04:23 AM.
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Old 11-30-2015, 04:24 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Knight View Post
Vacuum leak fixed and new 02 sensors installed. Car feels like it picked up 20hp. I was a little surprised at the rough condition of the original sensors and the fact that a SES code wasn't thrown.

Fuel pump will be ordered next and I will keep an eye out for SAP codes.
I never see O2 sensor codes unless the heaters fail. I find lazy O2 sensors all the time and never a single code. Problem with the OBDII implementation and monitoring O2 sensors IMHO.
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Old 11-30-2015, 09:52 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jfoj View Post
I need MAF readings in g/s.

Also post Freeze Frame info for any codes that are triggered. Freeze Frame is very helpful.

I think you will find OBDFusion a bit easier to use overall.

Suggest you do my suggested data Logging.

Need 3 separate Logs. Each 4 minutes in length.

Cold start from overnight. Best to turn the ignition on and connect the App before starting the engine. Do not touch the throttle, do not drive the car.

Warm idle. 4 minutes stopped in Park or Neutral. Do not touch the throttle, AC and other accessories turned off.

Steady cruise. 45-65 MPH range, pick a speed and try to keep a steady throttle. Flat, straight road is best, use Cruise Control if possible.

With these 3 Logs I can tell a lot about what may be going on.

Read my comments in this thread about OBDFusion set up. Note that OBDFusion used to be called Touch Scan.

https://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=1080334
Looks like a nice application. Cleaner UI than Torque Pro. Thank you for the detailed configuration instructions. Everything is set up and I will pull the logs specified.

I converted the MAF readings and .64 lb/min came out to 4.8 g/s.
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Old 12-08-2015, 12:20 PM   #28
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The requested logs are linked below. It's been weeks since my last misfire code, thankfully.

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/e4q19wtvc...nlwVSLksa?dl=0

However, I am still getting on/off SAP codes and an occasional rough idle on a cold start.

On a side note, I am having difficulty stopping the logging process with ODB Fusion. Clicking on the Stop button doesn't cancel the logging like it does with Torque Pro, which is why these logs were tracking longer than just a few minutes. Ultimately, I had to exit the app each time to create different log files.
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Last edited by Knight; 12-08-2015 at 12:21 PM.
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Old 12-08-2015, 12:38 PM   #29
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Quick view shows that the vehicle is not going into Closed Loop when the engine is cold. Goes directly from Open Loop to Status 8 Open loop due to system failure.

So first things to check is to make sure O2 sensor heater fuse in the DME box is good.

What is the history on the O2 sensors?

SAP codes are due to the Status 8 and what appears to be a very Lean cold start situation.

Warm idle the O2 sensor behavior looks pretty good.

MAF reading at warm idle may appear low, assume this was in neutral?

Time for smoke test, verify brake booster for leaks.

What does not make sense is the Fuel Trims are slightly negative which is removing fuel.
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Old 12-08-2015, 12:46 PM   #30
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Quick view shows that the vehicle is not going into Closed Loop when the engine is cold. Goes directly from Open Loop to Status 8 Open loop due to system failure.

So first things to check is to make sure O2 sensor heater fuse in the DME box is good.

What is the history on the O2 sensors?

SAP codes are due to the Status 8 and what appears to be a very Lean cold start situation.

Warm idle the O2 sensor behavior looks pretty good.

MAF reading at warm idle may appear low, assume this was in neutral?

Time for smoke test, verify brake booster for leaks.

What does not make sense is the Fuel Trims are slightly negative which is removing fuel.
I'll check the fuse.

New Bosch pre-cat 02 sensors were installed a few hundred miles ago. Post-cat sensors I assume are original.

Both cold and warm idle logs were taken with the car in Park. MAF reading at idle from what I've observed with the real time readout has been between 4-5 g/s...which is odd considering that the log captured it at a notably lower reading (< 3.5 g/s).

Brake booster was replaced by the PO. Smoke test taken the other week showed only a leak at the upper intake boot due to a broken clamp, which when replaced got rid of the misfire codes.
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Old 12-08-2015, 02:02 PM   #31
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How far has the car been driven since the Pre-cat O2 sensors were replaced?

It looks looks like the O2 sensor polarity is backwards.

Were the O2 sensors "Direct Fit" with the connectors or did you need to splice the old connector onto the new sensors?
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Old 12-08-2015, 07:16 PM   #32
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How far has the car been driven since the Pre-cat O2 sensors were replaced?

It looks looks like the O2 sensor polarity is backwards.

Were the O2 sensors "Direct Fit" with the connectors or did you need to splice the old connector onto the new sensors?
Car was driven maybe 500 miles. The sensors were direct fit Bosch 13477's.

http://shop.advanceautoparts.com/p/b...ontent=general

Possible they are bad?
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Old 12-08-2015, 09:48 PM   #33
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I do not think the O2 sensors are defective.

Either the SAP is not running at all and/or the O2 sensors are reading backwards.

Attached is the graph of the new Pre-cat O2 sensors on cold start - https://www.dropbox.com/s/9nu7x6uyus...Start.jpg?dl=0

You can see there is an upside down steep ramp. Not sure if this is with no SAP or if the SAP is working and the signals are backwards.

Then the sensors goes flat one direction and the fuel management is in error.

I would also check to see if the O2 sensors are connected to the proper bank as well.
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Old 12-12-2015, 02:59 PM   #34
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Checked the fuses in the engine bay and none were blown.

I can't see how the connectors for the 02 sensors could have been swapped. I changed one sensor at a time. Tried reversing them to see if it was even possible and the wiring wouldn't reach. I did notice that the wires for the Cylinder 4-6 sensor looked slightly twisted at the connector whereas the wires for the Cylinder 1-3 sensor looked straighter. Could be a factor?

The car was garaged overnight and it is a warmer day, but I started the car with the large hose disconnected and the pump was not pushing any air. I probably should test to make sure the connector is getting power, but at this point, a 15 year old SAP being shot is not far-fetched.

Interestingly enough, I had misfire codes come back last night for the first time in weeks. All was fine after clearing them. I idled the car for 30+ minutes today after a cold start and everything was smooth.

Might be time for a second smoke test. In any case, should I just replace the SAP?

SAP: https://www.fcpeuro.com/products/bmw...rg-11727553056

Control Valve: https://www.fcpeuro.com/products/bmw...rg-11727553063

Vacuum Line: https://www.fcpeuro.com/products/bmw...ne-11727574490

Should come out to $306 after some price matching.
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Old 12-12-2015, 06:26 PM   #35
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Hold off on the SAP for the moment.

Do you have Freeze Frame for the misfiring?

May need to do some logging and do some testing.

Pull the oil fill cap while running to see if the Fuel Trims and O2 sensors react in the proper way.

Then Enrichen the mixture with propane or brake cleaner to see if the Fuel Trims and O2 sensors react in the proper way.
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Old 12-14-2015, 05:12 PM   #36
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Hold off on the SAP for the moment.

Do you have Freeze Frame for the misfiring?

May need to do some logging and do some testing.

Pull the oil fill cap while running to see if the Fuel Trims and O2 sensors react in the proper way.

Then Enrichen the mixture with propane or brake cleaner to see if the Fuel Trims and O2 sensors react in the proper way.
Removed the SAP and went for a drive. SAP codes predictably came on but the misfire is gone.

Where would I spray the brake cleaner to trigger this reaction?

Also, for the next cold start log, would this be acceptable:

-2 minute baseline
-1 minute w/o oil fill cap
-1 minute after enriching mixture

Most recent freeze frame below:

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Old 12-14-2015, 05:37 PM   #37
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SAP should really have no major impact on any misfiring, this may have been coincidental?

Might want to see a cold start Log with SAP connector disconnected. This will allow me to compare cold start with and without SAP, assuming SAP is actually working. I think the Log with the SAP connector disconnected will allow me to determine IF the SAP is actually doing anything.

As for the cold start Log that you suggested, this should be fine.

You would try to spray the Brake Cleaner in at the F connector if you can get one of the hoses off without breaking the F connector, this is hard to do. Otherwise you may be able to take the small straw and feed it in where the Upper and Lower intake boots connect. You may be able to separate the intake boots and put the small straw in under the boot on one side then slide the boots back together and gently tighten the clamp.

Another option that may work is take a 1-2 foot section of small vacuum line, route it inside the air filter box and have it point right into the MAF opening. Then you could mist the Brake Cleaner into the small hose.

You should be able to spray about the full amount, it may change the idle speed but should not cause the engine to stall.

I just need to see what is really going on.

As for the Freeze Frame shot, this is interesting.

Engine is in Closed Loop, which I would expect to occur in the first 60 seconds or so on cold start.

Engine Temp is 26C/80F so slowly warming up when the Freeze Frame was triggered.

LTFT both a 0% which leads me to believe that although the engine is in Closed Loop, the LTFT are not governing the fuel mixture.

STFT are very high. They seem to be governing the fuel mixture.

The STFT seem to agree with the low Voltage that the Pre-Cat O2 sensors are reporting. But the STFT are much higher than the original cold start Log that you provided earlier.

Usually high STFT mean a smaller vacuum leak, often crankcase air leaks and/or a leaking power brake booster.

I did not reread the thread from the beginning, but have you smoke tested the intake and/or crankcase?
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Old 12-14-2015, 05:56 PM   #38
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I smoke tested and the only leak that came up was at the connecting point between the upper and lower intake boots, which was caused by a broken clamp. After replacing the clamp, I did not see a misfire code for weeks.
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Old 12-14-2015, 06:20 PM   #39
jfoj
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Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Fairfax, VA USA or Iredell County, NC USA
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My Ride: 330CiC, M5, X5, E93
You may not have smoke tested thoroughly enough.

Once you fix one leak, you have to look for others.

You also need to remove the oil fill cap, make sure the crankcase fully fills with smoke, then reinstall the oil fill cap.

One problem is the CCV hoses often leak under the oil filter housing and below the intake so you need a really good flashlight and really inspect for even small leaks.

Cracked valve covers can be also very hard to find. You have make sure pressure builds up in the crankcase before most valve cover leaks become apparent.

Power brake booster problems cannot be smoke tested with the input check valve installed as this will block smoke from entering the booster. If you smoke test the booster you need to look under the dash.

For the fuel pressure vent hose, easily just to remove the small hose at the F connector and make sure you cannot blow though the FPR vent hose.
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Old 12-24-2015, 02:14 PM   #40
Knight
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Location: NJ
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My Ride: SL63 | SHO | E46
I haven't been able to capture the aforementioned logs just yet, sorry.

In the meantime, here are more recent highway cruise and warm idle logs (with the SAP removed):

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/9zqwh3eot...6-J2cbA5a?dl=0

A few other items to note:

-The transmission cog/limp mode has reappeared for the first time since the end of November, when it was immediately resolved with the installation of a new battery. I tested the battery and the alternator and both passed.

-Not sure if this is relevant, but there is an exhaust leak. I was pressed for time and had some work done at a friend's shop which involved dropping the exhaust, so I will take the car back for resolution when he reopens.

-The live MAF readout at idle is showing between 4.1-4.6 g/s but the logs are capturing a readout of 3.5 g/s consistently, which is below the acceptable range. I've read of bad MAF's being the culprit of transmission cog lights, so is this something worth to replace at this stage?
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