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Handling differences among models

6K views 84 replies 25 participants last post by  wfx32 
#1 ·
I am beginning to look for another bmw to replace my '99 with only 385,000 miles on it. It's probably been about time for a while! My car runs great, but will be wanting more work than I want to give it.

So, in looking for what I must have...a manual transmission and normally aspirated motor...I'm finding coupes and verts and wondering if you think I'd notice a difference in handling coming from my sedan?

My understanding is that the sedan is the most stable of platforms, but in typical 'non-racing' situations, do you think the 'extra flex' of non-sedans affects handling?

And, while we're at it, would I feel like a 1 or 2-series is too small, and/or a 5-series too big. Years ago I drove a 7-series and was shocked at how nimble it was...though it's a bit larger than I need.

Eager to hear what opinions you have so I can begin to obsess!
 
#2 ·
I'm finding coupes and verts and wondering if you think I'd notice a difference in handling coming from my sedan?

My understanding is that the sedan is the most stable of platforms, but in typical 'non-racing' situations, do you think the 'extra flex' of non-sedans affects handling?
i think so yes. i even notice the difference of one car having the fold down seats. so i'm beginning to understand the slicktop obsession. sedan is best but i would avoid the awd xi. as much as i love the wet/snow performance, it's just not worth the extra complexity.

And, while we're at it, would I feel like a 1 or 2-series is too small, and/or a 5-series too big. Years ago I drove a 7-series and was shocked at how nimble it was...though it's a bit larger than I need.
if i was forced to get a new car i guess i would go 1/2 series, but then i prefer the smaller cars. why not stick with E46 so that most all of the parts are interchangeable with your 99.
 
#3 ·
My understanding is that the sedan is the most stable of platforms, but in typical 'non-racing' situations, do you think the 'extra flex' of non-sedans affects handling?
Nope. Especially if the sedan has fold down seats.


As far as modern cars - the 1/2-series feel pretty close in size to the E46. So if you want something newer without feeling a big size difference, that'd probably be the way to go. A modern 3/4 would feel bigger, but still not huge. A modern 5 and bigger start getting into big car territory.

If you're still entertaining E46-aged cars, it might be worth looking into an E39. Or even E60 if you don't mind a somewhat ugly car. Bigger than the E46 for sure, but in 6-cylinder form they don't weigh that much more.
 
#4 ·
I haven***8217;t been inside or driven a 1 or 2 series car, but, I***8217;m pretty sure they will be on my radar when my son goes off to college. Interested in what everyone has to say in this thread.

My preferences are the same as yours, manual, N/A I6, RWD. I was searching for an e39 when I found the 46 I ended up with.
 
#5 · (Edited)
Chassis torsional rigidity specs:

BMW E46 Sedan (w/o folding seats) - 18,000 Nm/deg
BMW E46 Sedan (w/folding seats) - 13,000 Nm/deg
BMW E46 Wagon (w/folding seats) - 14,000 Nm/deg
BMW E46 Coupe (w/folding seats) - 12,500 Nm/deg
BMW E46 Convertible - 10,500 Nm/deg

As someone who owns a sedan without folding seats, a touring, and a vert, it is barely noticeable during daily driving. I drive my vert just as hard as I drove my 328i (minus the redline every time I drive it) and it is a very similar experience.
 
#7 ·
Thank you...and thank you all above!

I'm thinking of an e90...and found a vert with low miles, but I worry I'd miss the rigidity in my 'fun' driving. Admittedly I do less of it now.

Is the vert much louder on the highway due to roof noise? The vert above has a hard top folding roof ...I'm sure that's somewhat quieter than a ragtop, but I don't know.
 
#6 · (Edited)
I had a sedan, coupe, and now a m3 vert. They all felt the same to me honestly. If anything my vert feels stiffer then the non ms. I also have a e65 7 series, and I just bought a e60 550i 2 days ago. Imo I'm starting to get annoyed by the smallness of the 3 series. The 7 is a giant comfy boat, but I think the 5 series is perfect size imo. The e46 feels better for any type of hard driving, but I'm starting to feel claustrophobic nowadays.
 
#10 ·
As to handling:
the E46 xi has significantly different suspension geometry and alignment,
as well as (potentially) ride height.
Plus weight distribution from the extra steel in front, and under the tunnel.

That's the biggest difference I notice in the E46 line- it's almost as noticeable as which
tires the car has on it!

An E39 is a VERY different car- at least, ours is. Very different steering feedback, and very much wider tires,
and that makes a big difference.

I dunno what the E90 xi's geometry is- that might be worth looking into.

As to shell stiffness, that will only come into play at high- g loading...
...and to quote an infamous Detroit engineer,
"Given the choice of cornering above 0.4g and hitting a tree, the overwhelming number of motorists choose the tree"

t
likes his 93 F250, with all the torsional stiffness of a wet 2x4
 
#12 · (Edited)
I have an E46 M3 coupe and an E46 sedan without folding rear seats. Both cars have a sunroof.

I could definitely, without any doubt, feel that my sedan had WAY more rigidity than the M3. I could feel this coming out of my slightly sloped driveway, let alone when I push the car. Whoever says that it can't be felt either has folding seats on the sedan or simply doesn't have a feel for this type of thing - no offence to anyone.

I was bothered that my 325i felt much stiffer than my M3. Because of this, and as one of the ways to address the RACP/subframe issue, I added a Mason GTR rear brace to the M3. The rigidity increased dramatically - it felt like it doubled, without any exaggeration. So if you get an E46 with folding rear seats, be it a coupe of sedan, and care for more rigidity, I'd highly recommend getting a GTR style rear brace (Mason was the first to develop this but there are many replicas these days) which would tie your rear shock mounts with the subframe mounts below - this will transform the car in terms of rigidity.

Finally, if you truly love the driving dynamics of the E46 and you're only getting rid of yours because of high miles, it will be difficult to find a car that has the same dynamics and agility. Any newer or bigger BMWs will feel heavier, less nimble and more numb. Just read the reviews of 100s of people who moved on to newer or bigger platforms. I am sure there are many other small, agile and fun cars out there but I don't think very many BMWs will handle like the E46 does.

Good luck! Keep us posted on what you end up getting and how it goes...

Cheers
 
#16 ·
I have an E46 M3 coupe and an E46 sedan without folding rear seats. Both cars have a sunroof.

I could definitely, without any doubt, feel that my sedan had WAY more rigidity than the M3. I could feel this coming out of my slightly sloped driveway, let alone when I push the car. Whoever says that it can't be felt either has folding seats on the sedan or simply doesn't have a feel for this type of thing - no offence to anyone.
I was bothered by the fact that my 325i was much stiffer than my M3. Be it doubled, without any exaggeration.
:read: fun fact: M3 coupe torsional rigidity is higher than the sedan fixed rear seats. *higher than any non-M E46.
either your car is a rust bucket or been in an accident or you’re “feeling” is betraying you perhaps by sounds.
 
#15 · (Edited)
A more flexible chassis compromises handling in the sense that every time it deflects, the suspension components become misaligned because their mounting points are moving relative to one another. The degree to which you would actually notice this depends on a whole host of factors...

Some compliance in a car chassis is inevitable. But a more rigid chassis does help chassis engineers to dial in better handling b/c they can depend on the suspension geometry and components they select like dampers and springs to behave as intended without the X factor of chassis flex.
 
#22 ·
This is pretty much spot-on. Suspension deflection is very bad for handling, and damping is FAR more important than most non-racers think. Racing teams, especially pro racing teams, spend a lot of money on dampers to improve suspension control. A good friend of mine writes the data acquisition code for a very popular brand of shock dynos, and some of the stories he tells me about the lengths some teams go through to improve damper control are almost hard to believe.
 
#18 ·
We've got a MY02 Boxster Tiptronic, which I feel is much stiffer then the same year 330xi sedan that we've had in daily beater duty. The xi, for me, feels tank-like and somewhat 5 series-ish on the highway, albeit some aspects of production quality were mildly thoughtless. I'm hoping our e46 does not get hit, as I don't know what I'd replace it with(not an e90 fan).
regards
 
#19 ·
Having read more about the rigidity of our models, I was comforted to hear the e90 I might consider is more rigid. I thought my e46 was mushy compared to my e36, but it's also wider.

I know the overall feeling of the car will vary based on many things, so I'm not going to have a torsional rigidity 'litmus test.'

Also, I'm very discouraged to hear I won't be happy in another car! :( I really want an aux port and/or bluetooth and don't want to deal with all that's coming up for my old car. It runs perfectly, it really does...but I can reliably predict that it will get less predictable.

Final question...knowing I love the driving part of the car...could I be content with an Xi AWD in a manual? Here again I think I'd hate the understeer and have seen so many here seemingly mess up their front axles. I'm sure the drive is mostly still in the rear, but there are a lot of potholes around me. Anyone going from an i to an Xi care to comment? It'd be nice to have a little more comfort in the snow, but those are very few days where it'd make a difference.
 
#20 ·
Go and drive one. You might find it challenging to find one with a manual trans, though, they are around. If you do look for an xi, I's opt for the 330 over the 325. The extra torque and hp really helps to move that AWD system. Best of luck with the search.
regards
 
#24 ·
Doug, something to think about....

If your car is still in fairly good condition (no rust or other structural issues), you may be better off putting money into YOUR car. If you buy another used car, especially of similar vintage, unless it was meticulously maintained, it's likely to exact a similar outlay of cash to make it right.
 
#27 ·
My fear is that I'll put thousands into giving this its next 400,000 miles...and then get it totaled by one of the many morons on the roads around here. That happened to my e36, a month after I rebuilt the cylinder head because I'd overheated and kept driving. Who knew you needed a belt to cool the motor? :(

I'd 'really' need every bushing...do the timing chain stuff...and all the other stuff all over again. I'm probably thinking I need a vacation from the auto work. It is a shame, though, because I've just done plugs, vcg, cleaned TB and icv...it runs lovely...garage kept and I keep its bottom rinsed too. It's worth every penny of the $500-1,000 it's 'really' worth!
 
#29 · (Edited)
Ugh...it seems no newer motor is as trouble free as mine is...the good ole M52tuB28

Among later naturally-aspirated engines, what would you choose for me? I do not want a turbo...so based on what I'm seeing I think it's either a latter model M54 in the latter years of the E46 330i or first years of the E90 330i, but it looks like the '08 E90s got the N52 and became 328s.

Am I understanding Terra correctly in 'maybe' choosing a e90 328 between '09 and '12? There was some lifter ticking issue with the N52 prior to 12/08 (I read). Then put on the new intake...maybe...and turn it into a 330.
 
#31 ·
Yes, the M52TUB28 is hard to beat reliability-wise.
All things considered, perhaps the N52K is the most logical choice - good engine without major issues, more expensive to maintain compared to the M52TU/M54, but unlike those you can find one with relatively low miles.

That's what I'd probably do if I am forced to buy another BMW again...
 
#30 ·
yeah your m52tu is hard to beat. the later e46 330i is an oil burner with those m54 low friction rings. it’s so hard to find the old cars still in good shape .. but the older designs were better.

so get one as old as tolerable and consider regressive upgrades to the previous design if possible. right now i’m thinking about how to install the old rings in my m54.
 
#33 ·
I had this same Fn problem (pardon my bad letters) looking to replace my '92 e36. That's why I drive a Fern Green car! I needed a 3 and a manual. Now I need naturally-aspirated and would do almost anything to anyone to find an '11 NA 328i (non-sulev) with navigation and blue tooth so I can play spotify. Almost anything, with almost anyone, anywhere.

What happened to people? When did everyone get so lazy? A manual is going to be a thing of the past. :(
 
#38 ·
I currently have an '06 325 CI auto and an '08 528 auto. They both have 105k miles. The e60 really hasn't been any more trouble or expensive than the e46. It has been different trouble and a bunch of new technology to learn. I much prefer driving the e60. There is no comparison in ride comfort and even with plush ride tires it gives up very little in handling. If you really want handling the e60 with the sport suspension rides softer in a straight line and corners flatter. Drivers that have driven both the e90 and e60 sport suspension models generally pick the e60. It will add maintenance time. If you watch you can pick up a low mileage late e60 for considerably less than an e90.

The downside - the N52K is a magnesium alloy block that won't come near the longevity of an m5x engine.
 
#35 · (Edited)
It's sold. :( F! But thank you for looking! I have great friends in Atlanta...I could've made that work!

Just as well, all black is a very hot color to have in NJ in the summer...but I can't be fussy about color...except for red. I don't want a red car.

I loved my e36--silver with gray...stylish and cool in the summer.
 
#48 · (Edited)
Folks...found a 2006 330Ci zhp with 70k, but they wanted $18,950 for it. Any way that car would be better than a 2011 with N51 or N52? It's an e46...seems like there are a lot of nice little gadgets in the e90, though all I want is an aux port or bluetooth.

I've been looking...getting desperate...do not want metal pieces blown through my head so much.

...and if I do get an e90, I want you all to know I'll still try to come here and give bad advice and troll. :)
 
#51 · (Edited)
In my opinion, the price is too high (that's almost M3 money) and that mileage means you'll have to do a decent amount of maintenance work on this car in the next 30K miles because most of the 100K mile items are probably yet to be addressed, unless maintenance records indicate otherwise. Here's what that type of money should get you: https://bringatrailer.com/listing/2006-bmw-330ci-zhp-6-speed-6/

Having said that, if the car has no rust, is in good shape overall for the mileage, you love the color combo and plan on keeping it long-term, go for it if you can negotiate a better deal. This price makes more sense for a car with that mileage: https://bringatrailer.com/listing/2005-bmw-330ci-10/
 
#53 ·
Also, have you ever been inside an E90? If not, you're going to HATE it compared to the E46 interior. Just sayin' that was my initial and long lasting impression. Took away all the "driver centric" stuff and everything so much more centered on the dash, YUK.

Plus, you love pulling out a dipstick to check the oil right? Forget about that on E9x
 
#54 ·
I was also gonna saw but saw it mentioned earlier that if you are honestly thinking about jumping from an M52 into an M54, you might hate it, because the power increase is a little to the 3 liter, but the oil blow by and consumption issues will drive you INSANE. You will regret every moment of it.

With that being said, I think I know the PERFECT car for you, it will yield EONS of highway trips that just melt away in the rear view mirror. Find yourself an E39 528i. Same engine that you have now, absolutely bullet proof, makes 528i move nicely, and relatively quick, but not FAST FAST, although you will be surprised at how closely the M52B28's power feels like the M54B30.

They can be had cheap, most are automatics, not even sure if they made 528i's in stick? I know they made 540i's stick and all M5's are stick from the E39 era. But the cheapest one you can find will be an E39 528i. Just go drive one, take it out on the highway and enjoy it. Plus, it's so similar to the E46, you'll already be familiar with working on things.

You get an XI, you WILL hate life, you WILL be replacing half shafts more than you ever imagined you'd want to and you have another differential to deal with coupled with hideous ride height and zero fun in the snow. HA
 
#55 ·
I was also gonna saw but saw it mentioned earlier that if you are honestly thinking about jumping from an M52 into an M54, you might hate it, because the power increase is a little to the 3 liter, but the oil blow by and consumption issues will drive you INSANE. You will regret every moment of it.
That depends greatly on how much oil the M54 in question burns and the owner's tolerance for it. Mine sips a little bit and I check it every week and don't lose sleep over it. YMMV of course.

They can be had cheap, most are automatics, not even sure if they made 528i's in stick?
They did. You can even find 528i Tourings with stickshifts here in the States. It's just unfortunate that all the 528s are prefacelift E39s. The visual update improved the look of the car quite a bit.
 
#59 ·
Write up I did on the 128i back in 2013 (on M3f):

I originally posted this in this thread, but it seemed off the topic of that thread enough that it seemed reasonable to give it its own.

I certainly don't think the 128i is a car for everyone. BMW people, imo, are rapidly being divided into two camps, much like air cooled vs water cooled 911 people. In BMW world, I'd say the dividing line is more turbo/DCT/EPS vs NA/manual/HPS, but these's been many possible dividing lines over the past couple of years and looking forward. Personally, I see it, really, as "fast" vs "involving"

Anyway... for those are interested in reading the case for the 128i, two articles that might be interesting to you. The first is from Mike Miller, who is the tech advice guy for roundle, as well as a writer for Bimmer and Hemming's Sport and Exotic Car.









Jalopnic:

Why The BMW 1-Series Is The Next Great Future Classic
Last week, the first uncovered photos of the BMW 2-Series hit the web. I like it. But it got me thinking about the outgoing BMW 1-Series, and why years from now, it may be the most sought after Bimmer of our time by enthusiasts, weekend racers and hoons on a budget. Now might be the ideal time to snatch one up. P

In this age of hybrid drivetrains with silent engines, too-numb electric power steering, engine sounds piped in by computers, overly intrusive safety nannies and ever-increasing curb weights, it's hard to find cars that could qualify as legitimate future classics. The 1-Series may just fit that definition, and here's why.P



You see, the future doesn't look all that great for the number 1 in North America. BMW isn't bringing us the new hatchback 1-Series that dropped in Europe in 2011, and they probably aren't bringing over its successor that's currently in the works, either. At best, we can hope for the forthcoming 1-Series GT variant that is said to be front-wheel-drive.P

I can't see too many enthusiasts lining up at BMW dealerships for that. P

Instead of the 1, we Americans are getting the 2, and we got the best look at that car to date when the spy photos of the M235i hit the web last week. It's a handsome coupe with a much sleeker silhouette than the 1-Series, which was often maligned for its awkwardly tall roofline.P

But here's my issue with the 2-Series: it's bigger than the 1-Series. At least, it certainly looks that way in the photos, and we have several men standing next to it to give a sense of scale. Without seeing any exact measurements, it appears to be longer than its predecessor. It makes sense, given the creeping size increases in BMW's new models. P

I don't doubt that the 2-Series will perform well, but I will miss the tossability of the compact 1-Series.P

The 1-Series is that rarest of creatures these days: the small, rear-wheel-drive coupe. It's the kind of car you barely see anymore, and one that harkens back to BMW's own glory days with the New Class cars of the 60s and 70s like the famed 2002, as well as the everyone-and-their-mother-loves-it E30.P

Here's what I'm thinking: some 10, 15, or 20 years from now, the 1-Series may be what the E30 is to buyers today. It will be for people who want a small, purebred sports coupe with impressive performance for not a lot of money. If you find one that hasn't had the crap kicked out of it, it will make for a fantastic enthusiast bargain. P



Like the E30, the case could be made that the first set of 1-Series owners, by and large, didn't appreciate what they had. Don't get me wrong — there are tons of 135i and 128i owners out there who enjoy autocross, track days, or just a great back road when there aren't any cops around. Go on just about any BMW forum and you'll see tons of 1 owners having a lot of fun with their cars.P

But when even BMW admits that famously 80 percent of 1-Series owners believed their cars were front-wheel-drive, you know the masses aren't really getting the most out of this great machine. So one day, years from now, the 1-Series will really shine in the hands of the Bimmer guy (or gal) who buys one used on the cheap.P

You could also argue that the 1-Series is one of the the last of the "pure" BMWs. At the moment, you can't even buy a new 3-Series sedan anymore with a naturally aspirated straight-six engine. That lineup has gone to two turbocharged fours (which are great engines) or a turbocharged six (which is also a great engine.) Presumably the 2-Series will get the same turbo-centric powerplants, or at least some of them. P

But the 128i comes with a regular, silky smooth, naturally breathing straight-six, just like the BMWs so many of us grew up with, as well as a turbo'd variant if more power is required. All of this is true of the outgoing 3-Series Coupe, due to be replaced soon by the 4-Series, although I like the 1 better because it's smaller. P

With "only" 230 horsepower to play with, some speed freaks have overlooked the non-turbo 128i, but I feel like one day, the car's purity will get the attention it deserves. And of course, the turbo 135i is absurdly fast, so that will be one hell of a deal when it comes down in price a bit.



And then there's the bad boy, the powder maker, the torso taker, the Puff the Magic Dragon of the 1-Series family. I am, of course, talking about the turbocharged, 340-horsepower 1 Series M Coupe, which got saddled with a ridiculous name because of BMW's devotion to the M1 supercar from the 1970s. This thing should have been called the M1, because it had the performance to back it up.1P

Universally loved by damn near everyone who ever drove it, the 1M was only ever made as a limited-edition car in 2011 and 2012, and only about 6,000 or so were ever sold. This car has the potential to be this generation's E30 M3 or 2002tii, though admittedly, it lacks the motorsports heritage of those two models. I have a feeling that one day good 1Ms will be going for a lot of money on the auction block. 23P

In fact, I have a good feeling about this entire family of cars. I think that a generation from now, when my son Kanye Lannister George is writing for the 3D holographic Jalopnik, the 1-Series will make it onto some "Answers of the Day" list about cars future people wish they could buy new today. 4P

So current 1-Series owners, take care of your cars. The future track rats who will buy them at 1/4 their original value will thank you for it
from http://jalopnik.com/why-the-bmw-1-series-is-the-next-great-future-classic-508797316



Personally, here's the argument for the 128i from my perspective:
-sub 3100 lb curb weight with wheel and non runflat tires alone (230 lbs stock vs stock compared to a 135-- a combination of the all alu/magnesium N52, lack of turbo and support hardware, lighter transmission, and the standard sunroof on the 135i)
-closest to 50:50 weight distribution of every e82
-300 HP NA with a factory intake manifold ($300 used, manifold from an X5 3.0, X3 3.0, e9X 330i, or Z4 3.0), headers, and a tune to take advantage of them (doing headers retains the stock secondary cats, so you're not even stinky after).
-linear NA power band without any turbo lag
-Non M car reliability/running costs
-Good handling stock, excellent handling with 1M/M3 subframe bushings
-best interior (imo) of the e82/e60/e90-- the buttons are actually still aimed at the driver, think of it!
-some of the best seats BMW has put in a car (enough so that they didn't feel any need to change them in the 1M)
-Probably the best 6mt BMW has ever put into a car from a shift quality perspective (different trans than the 135i, btw-- didn't need the torque handling capacity without turbos)
-can be had without idrive while still having bluetooth/ipod integration
-hydraulic power steering with feel
-lots of aftermarket support in terms of suspension/brakes thanks to the 135i, and lots of OEM upgrades thanks to... e9Xs, other N52 cars with more power, 1M, etc

I completely agree that it's not the best looking car. But... I dont find it mildly uglier than the e9X and about on part with the e60. Styling is certainly it's worst feature. I love the e82 interior, I find the e9X interior... acceptable, and I downright dislike the e60 interior.

Other than looks, it very much takes the best aspects of the euro e36 M3, makes the car lighter, and adds modern toys.... which getting better fuel economy and having non M engine rebuild intervals. (said as someone who used to have an S52 e36 M3 and currently has a S50B32 (euro engine) e36 M3)

It also avoids ALL of the reliability issues of the N54/N55 cars other than the standard BMW water pump failure. No HPFP issues, no carbon buildup issues (as it's not DI), no turbo failure, brake pistons cracking, etc.

It's the final form of the BMW NA I6 evolution, and it shines through as such. It remains, and likely will be for the foreseeable future, the most hp/pound (of engine mass) of any 6 cylinder. The e82 128i, as a whole, is the final form of everything that got me into BMW's originally... and why I have zero interest in any of their current products.




BTW, for anyone interested in learning more about the N52/likes to read about thing in depth... I very much enjoyed the BMW training information on the N52:

http://lindvigs.com/obioban/spec.pdf




edit 2/26/14:

From a recent X1 review:

Connoisseurs should buy the 128i—the last BMW to offer the naturally aspirated inline-six—if any are left on dealer lots now that it’s been replaced by the turbo four–powered 228i. But if you absolutely need a usable back seat (even if the X1’s is slightly tight) or an additional set of doors, the X1 xDrive35i is the second-most BMW-like BMW you can buy today. Act now, before it, too, is “enhanced” by modernity.
 
#60 · (Edited)
BMW people, imo, are rapidly being divided into two camps, much like air cooled vs water cooled 911 people. In BMW world, I'd say the dividing line is more turbo/DCT/EPS vs NA/manual/HPS, but these's been many possible dividing lines over the past couple of years and looking forward. Personally, I see it, really, as "fast" vs "involving"
i agree. i***8217;ve met several folks in both camps. personally i***8217;m not interested in the detached experience of modern cars. not to mention the complexity and cost. i***8217;m willing to give up speed, but a lot of folks are not.

But when even BMW admits that famously 80 percent of 1-Series owners believed their cars were front-wheel-drive, you know the masses aren't really getting the most out of this great machine. So one day, years from now, the 1-Series will really shine in the hands of the Bimmer guy (or gal) who buys one used on the cheap.
from http://jalopnik.com/why-the-bmw-1-series-is-the-next-great-future-classic-508797316
that about sums up BMW. quality lost on 80% of new car purchasers.
 
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