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Old 10-29-2011, 10:24 AM   #1
HPF Chris
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Thumbs Up Injector TESTING and FLOW by HorsepowerFreaks using ID 2000cc Injectors

There's been some discussion about injectors on these forums so I asked John to take our new ID 2000 injectors along with some other injectors and give a tutorial on injector flow rates and spray patterns as various fuel pressures and engine rpms. At the end he will show you a lower quality injector literally shut off from too much fuel pressure.

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Old 10-29-2011, 11:05 AM   #2
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Old 10-29-2011, 01:20 PM   #3
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Can we switch to id1k s on stage 3 with a higher fp ? cause I really hate the rc s triangular pattern or fic s 1100 ?
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Old 10-29-2011, 01:52 PM   #4
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Why are you concerning yourself with flow rates of the injectors @ 90 pounds when you're running 60 base? You don't use the referenced pressure to determine capable flow, only the base pressure. Effective pressure across the injector remains the same and so flow remains the same as 60. Should only concern yourself that they operate.
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Old 10-29-2011, 02:11 PM   #5
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Great video and very informative Thanks for posting it up Chris

I'm intrigue to know what sort of John's personal drag car is ... Any pics of it
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Old 10-29-2011, 02:31 PM   #6
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Why are you concerning yourself with flow rates of the injectors @ 90 pounds when you're running 60 base? You don't use the referenced pressure to determine capable flow, only the base pressure. Effective pressure across the injector remains the same and so flow remains the same as 60. Should only concern yourself that they operate.
The injectors in the HPF M3 are seeing 90+ psi. Injector flow rates are clearly not in question with the ID 2000s but it's nice to show people how close they are to advertised, how the flow rates change as fuel pressure is increased, how consistent they are from injector to injector, how well their injector does at producing a reliable spray pattern all the way to 130psi, how this compares to a factory injector, how spray pattern quality diminishes as fuel pressure drops, how the oem injectors direct their streams at an angle and how some injectors literally shut off as fuel pressure increases past their capabilities.

Chris
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Old 10-29-2011, 02:36 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by Estoril-E46 View Post
Why are you concerning yourself with flow rates of the injectors @ 90 pounds when you're running 60 base? You don't use the referenced pressure to determine capable flow, only the base pressure. Effective pressure across the injector remains the same and so flow remains the same as 60. Should only concern yourself that they operate.
This , id love to see a lower CC injector , say ID1000's as i run , at those pressures , usually with bigger injectors you need more pressure to get a better spray.

Also note that the injector isnt angled at the valves(or is it in the hpf intake setup?) meaning that you will never get that long of a spray pattern as in the bench

EDIT : Oh yeah and nice video as always guys
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Old 10-29-2011, 02:58 PM   #8
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The injectors in the HPF M3 are seeing 90+ psi.
Doesn't matter. If the pressure in front of them is 30 (which it would be if they were seeing 90psi), then they flow like they do at 60psi regardless of what the fuel pressure is.
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Old 10-29-2011, 04:37 PM   #9
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Sorry, Am I the only one? The only one that doesnt get it? Why use injectors that demand such a high working PSI? There just are not that many pumps that are designed to even LIKE working at 100psi! Hot hot hot. Thats a dangerous amount of fuel pressure IMO too. I could not imagine a hose bursting or a fitting failing.
I talked with Aeromotive about their A1000 liter per hour pump and using it with the ID 750's at 95psi. For one, it wont flow enough at that pressure. Most pumps wont. And two, the guy was just incredulous as to WHY you would even want to think about playing around with that pressure. He suggested the MSD catalog for injector alternatives. He was to the point of being upset with the thought of such a high psi with the ID's.

But I have no real knowledge of the theory of why HPF would choose to go this way. So far I really havent questioned a single thing they do since it all seems so well thought out.

But I cant wrap myself around thids one. Help me out on this one, please.
Tell me why I cant run a nice 1000cc injector at a fluffy 45 static pressure and 68 psi working pressure and make wonderful clean efficent power with a 71mm turbo.? And have that nice spray pattern that doesnt look like you are putting your thumb over an open garden hose LOL! Man, that ID 2000 was SCARY even at 60psi!!! I confess I have not watched the ENTIRE video yet. I will. But in the mean time...
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Old 10-29-2011, 04:47 PM   #10
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Sorry, Am I the only one? The only one that doesnt get it? Why use injectors that demand such a high working PSI? There just are not that many pumps that are designed to even LIKE working at 100psi! Hot hot hot. Thats a dangerous amount of fuel pressure IMO too. I could not imagine a hose bursting or a fitting failing.K
I talked with Aeromotive about their A1000 liter per hour pump and using it with the ID 750's at 95psi. For one, it wont flow enough at that pressure. Most pumps wont. And two, the guy was just incredulous as to WHY you would even want to think about playing around with that pressure. He suggested the MSD catalog for injector alternatives. He was to the point of being upset with the thought of such a high psi with the ID's.

But I have no real knowledge of the theory of why HPF would choose to go this way. So far I really havent questioned a single thing they do since it all seems so well thought out.

But I cant wrap myself around thids one. Help me out on this one, please.
Tell me why I cant run a nice 1000cc injector at a fluffy 45 static pressure and 68 psi working pressure and make wonderful clean efficent power with a 71mm turbo.? And have that nice spray pattern that doesnt look like you are putting your thumb over an open garden hose LOL! Man, that ID 2000 was SCARY even at 60psi!!! I confess I have not watched the ENTIRE video yet. I will. But in the mean time...
Watch the entire video :-). I had John make this video for you :-)

Last edited by HPF Chris; 10-29-2011 at 04:48 PM.
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Old 10-29-2011, 04:48 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Estoril-E46 View Post
Doesn't matter. If the pressure in front of them is 30 (which it would be if they were seeing 90psi), then they flow like they do at 60psi regardless of what the fuel pressure is.
Correct!
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Old 10-29-2011, 05:07 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by Bdave View Post
Sorry, Am I the only one? The only one that doesnt get it? Why use injectors that demand such a high working PSI? There just are not that many pumps that are designed to even LIKE working at 100psi! Hot hot hot. Thats a dangerous amount of fuel pressure IMO too. I could not imagine a hose bursting or a fitting failing.
I talked with Aeromotive about their A1000 liter per hour pump and using it with the ID 750's at 95psi. For one, it wont flow enough at that pressure. Most pumps wont. And two, the guy was just incredulous as to WHY you would even want to think about playing around with that pressure. He suggested the MSD catalog for injector alternatives. He was to the point of being upset with the thought of such a high psi with the ID's.

But I have no real knowledge of the theory of why HPF would choose to go this way. So far I really havent questioned a single thing they do since it all seems so well thought out.

But I cant wrap myself around thids one. Help me out on this one, please.
Tell me why I cant run a nice 1000cc injector at a fluffy 45 static pressure and 68 psi working pressure and make wonderful clean efficent power with a 71mm turbo.? And have that nice spray pattern that doesnt look like you are putting your thumb over an open garden hose LOL! Man, that ID 2000 was SCARY even at 60psi!!! I confess I have not watched the ENTIRE video yet. I will. But in the mean time...
Quote:
Originally Posted by HPF Chris View Post
Watch the entire video :-). I had John make this video for you :-)

What Chris is trying to illustrate is that higher pressure = finer spray which he concludes produces better economy and fuel air mixture. He is just sharing his opinion that he thinks the upsides (better spray) outweigh the downsides (putting a huge load on the pump).

However, you CAN run the ID1000s or 2000s at 45 base pressure, no problems what so ever. They already have a WAY better spray pattern at 40psi then most high flow injectors on the market have at any pressure (just take a look at their old RC injector videos). It's part of why EVERYONE who uses quality components use them, amongst a million other reasons.

Most people are of the same opinion as aeromotive, no reason to run them at such high pressures. The perceived benefits are more theoretical and most people see the downside of loading up the pumps like that to far outweigh them.

You can always step up your pump to an eliminator or pro series. I went with a pro series because an eliminator didn't have much headroom for me, and I knew I'd run e85 at some point which means you need even MORE flow. Downside being you really need to run a speed controller which is even more added cost to an already expensive pump. But no one can argue that a single pump isn't better then a multi pump setup if you can take the hit in the wallet (and save on headaches later)
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Old 10-29-2011, 05:33 PM   #13
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Please show the spray pattern at very low pulse widths like idle conditions, low speed steady state cruising etc. That is where I have the problems with the ID2000s.
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Old 10-29-2011, 05:43 PM   #14
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But I cant wrap myself around thids one. Help me out on this one, please.
Tell me why I cant run a nice 1000cc injector at a fluffy 45 static pressure and 68 psi working pressure and make wonderful clean efficent power with a 71mm turbo.?
You can. And I do. Like I have said before I run one in tank pump and 50psi base fuel pressure, 18 psi boost on a 68mm turbo and make 544rwhp (which is about 700rwhp in the US).

Don't get confused by watching things like this. A ID injector has a 10x better spray pattern at 45psi with a 1000cc injector than most others on the market.
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Old 10-29-2011, 06:00 PM   #15
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Please show the spray pattern at very low pulse widths like idle conditions, low speed steady state cruising etc. That is where I have the problems with the ID2000s.
You experienced problems with them there, or you hold a problem with them in theory? Most people would say they have some of the best idle/cruise characteristics of any similarly sized injector.

What you see in the machine doesn't really mean a damn thing anyway. At the end of the day, you are firing it at a wall, and what matters is what happens after it's un-puddled by the intake charge passing by.

More to the point, it can be argued (I'm not doing this here, just putting it out there) that high atomization is actually a poor match for high performance for several reasons. This is why BMW uses the injector that john demonstrated, it's purpose is to force a stream of fuel down the throat of the runner and atomize off the valve.

P.S. ID injectors are pintle injectors, which is why you see the change with pressure and not with some others.
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Old 10-29-2011, 06:22 PM   #16
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Most of the problems people get with good quality big injectors is poor injector control from ECU's.
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Old 10-29-2011, 06:43 PM   #17
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There is a lot more to spray pattern than you think. The latest injector technology shoots fuel in a STREAM like a squirt gun directly at the back of the intake valve. This minimizes 'wetting' on the cylinder wall and gets more of the fuel in the cylinder at valve opening....all that aside, the problem with the ID2000's has nothing to do with spray pattern or ultimate flow....it has to do with low pulse width control and getting the on time low enought to run a decently lean mixture. Run them with a pulse width of aroun 1.1ms to 1.3 ms....that's what it's going to take at a 50 to 60 psi of base on the S54 to get the mixture lean enought to idle properly without KILLING the plugs.
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Old 10-29-2011, 06:55 PM   #18
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Watch the entire video :-). I had John make this video for you :-)
Chris you take amazing care of me. I am not used to this. Its almost embarrassing. I dont feel worthy. Well, maybe a little. Thanks Chris. Warmly, thank you sir!

And Jason, thanks for your input. I am like a sponge soaking this stuff up. any suggested reading online about injector theory? CURRENT injector theory? I thought the guy from Aeromotive was going to pop a gasket when he started on about the Injector Dynamics injectors. He started foaming at the mouth...really against them./ Behind the times?

And you too O2PRUV. I hear you. Many thanks.

And John, can you PLEASE rephrase this?:"But no one can argue that a single pump isn't better then a multi pump setup"
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Old 10-29-2011, 07:12 PM   #19
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the problem with the ID2000's has nothing to do with spray pattern or ultimate flow....it has to do with low pulse width control and getting the on time low enought to run a decently lean mixture. Run them with a pulse width of aroun 1.1ms to 1.3 ms....that's what it's going to take at a 50 to 60 psi of base on the S54 to get the mixture lean enought to idle properly without KILLING the plugs.
I feel like this is an unfair statement since it's a problem with ALL huge injectors, but LEAST so with the ID injectors.

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And John, can you PLEASE rephrase this?:"But no one can argue that a single pump isn't better then a multi pump setup"
Have to keep in in context, but no one can argue a multi pump setup is better then a single pump, again, taken in context (since the potential arguments were addressed and concluded to be less weighted).
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Old 10-29-2011, 10:21 PM   #20
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I feel like this is an unfair statement since it's a problem with ALL huge injectors, but LEAST so with the ID injectors.



Have to keep in in context, but no one can argue a multi pump setup is better then a single pump, again, taken in context (since the potential arguments were addressed and concluded to be less weighted).
I will have two SEPARATE pumps. One for my fuel cell (its integral actually) and one for my main tank. But that is not what you are talking about I am certain. You mean some tandem pump system, yes? Please elaborate. Do you mind?
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