There's been some discussion about injectors on these forums so I asked John to take our new ID 2000 injectors along with some other injectors and give a tutorial on injector flow rates and spray patterns as various fuel pressures and engine rpms. At the end he will show you a lower quality injector literally shut off from too much fuel pressure.
Why are you concerning yourself with flow rates of the injectors @ 90 pounds when you're running 60 base? You don't use the referenced pressure to determine capable flow, only the base pressure. Effective pressure across the injector remains the same and so flow remains the same as 60. Should only concern yourself that they operate.
The injectors in the HPF M3 are seeing 90+ psi. Injector flow rates are clearly not in question with the ID 2000s but it's nice to show people how close they are to advertised, how the flow rates change as fuel pressure is increased, how consistent they are from injector to injector, how well their injector does at producing a reliable spray pattern all the way to 130psi, how this compares to a factory injector, how spray pattern quality diminishes as fuel pressure drops, how the oem injectors direct their streams at an angle and how some injectors literally shut off as fuel pressure increases past their capabilities.
Sorry, Am I the only one? The only one that doesnt get it? Why use injectors that demand such a high working PSI? There just are not that many pumps that are designed to even LIKE working at 100psi! Hot hot hot. Thats a dangerous amount of fuel pressure IMO too. I could not imagine a hose bursting or a fitting failing.
I talked with Aeromotive about their A1000 liter per hour pump and using it with the ID 750's at 95psi. For one, it wont flow enough at that pressure. Most pumps wont. And two, the guy was just incredulous as to WHY you would even want to think about playing around with that pressure. He suggested the MSD catalog for injector alternatives. He was to the point of being upset with the thought of such a high psi with the ID's.
But I have no real knowledge of the theory of why HPF would choose to go this way. So far I really havent questioned a single thing they do since it all seems so well thought out.
But I cant wrap myself around thids one. Help me out on this one, please.
Tell me why I cant run a nice 1000cc injector at a fluffy 45 static pressure and 68 psi working pressure and make wonderful clean efficent power with a 71mm turbo.? And have that nice spray pattern that doesnt look like you are putting your thumb over an open garden hose LOL! Man, that ID 2000 was SCARY even at 60psi!!! I confess I have not watched the ENTIRE video yet. I will. But in the mean time...:banghead:
Sorry, Am I the only one? The only one that doesnt get it? Why use injectors that demand such a high working PSI? There just are not that many pumps that are designed to even LIKE working at 100psi! Hot hot hot. Thats a dangerous amount of fuel pressure IMO too. I could not imagine a hose bursting or a fitting failing.K
I talked with Aeromotive about their A1000 liter per hour pump and using it with the ID 750's at 95psi. For one, it wont flow enough at that pressure. Most pumps wont. And two, the guy was just incredulous as to WHY you would even want to think about playing around with that pressure. He suggested the MSD catalog for injector alternatives. He was to the point of being upset with the thought of such a high psi with the ID's.
But I have no real knowledge of the theory of why HPF would choose to go this way. So far I really havent questioned a single thing they do since it all seems so well thought out.
But I cant wrap myself around thids one. Help me out on this one, please.
Tell me why I cant run a nice 1000cc injector at a fluffy 45 static pressure and 68 psi working pressure and make wonderful clean efficent power with a 71mm turbo.? And have that nice spray pattern that doesnt look like you are putting your thumb over an open garden hose LOL! Man, that ID 2000 was SCARY even at 60psi!!! I confess I have not watched the ENTIRE video yet. I will. But in the mean time...:banghead:
Please show the spray pattern at very low pulse widths like idle conditions, low speed steady state cruising etc. That is where I have the problems with the ID2000s.
You experienced problems with them there, or you hold a problem with them in theory? Most people would say they have some of the best idle/cruise characteristics of any similarly sized injector.
What you see in the machine doesn't really mean a damn thing anyway. At the end of the day, you are firing it at a wall, and what matters is what happens after it's un-puddled by the intake charge passing by.
More to the point, it can be argued (I'm not doing this here, just putting it out there) that high atomization is actually a poor match for high performance for several reasons. This is why BMW uses the injector that john demonstrated, it's purpose is to force a stream of fuel down the throat of the runner and atomize off the valve.
P.S. ID injectors are pintle injectors, which is why you see the change with pressure and not with some others.
There is a lot more to spray pattern than you think. The latest injector technology shoots fuel in a STREAM like a squirt gun directly at the back of the intake valve. This minimizes 'wetting' on the cylinder wall and gets more of the fuel in the cylinder at valve opening....all that aside, the problem with the ID2000's has nothing to do with spray pattern or ultimate flow....it has to do with low pulse width control and getting the on time low enought to run a decently lean mixture. Run them with a pulse width of aroun 1.1ms to 1.3 ms....that's what it's going to take at a 50 to 60 psi of base on the S54 to get the mixture lean enought to idle properly without KILLING the plugs.
the problem with the ID2000's has nothing to do with spray pattern or ultimate flow....it has to do with low pulse width control and getting the on time low enought to run a decently lean mixture. Run them with a pulse width of aroun 1.1ms to 1.3 ms....that's what it's going to take at a 50 to 60 psi of base on the S54 to get the mixture lean enought to idle properly without KILLING the plugs.
Have to keep in in context, but no one can argue a multi pump setup is better then a single pump, again, taken in context (since the potential arguments were addressed and concluded to be less weighted).
The above link shows two different spray patterns for injectors in the 950cc to 1150cc range.
Apparently the one that puts out the wide cone of fog ios best for our applications.
But what about the 950cc Spray Pattern with the small cone angle and dense fuel stream? Where would THAT be desirable?
The id2000's I have had on two different cars were pulled and replaced with other injectors for better low end control I had the same problems Larry had.
You can't use the argument that other people aren't having problems. Other people have a different perception of what is right and what is wrong. I have gotten in cars people swore up-and-down were perfect and instantly found tons of flaws in the way the car drove. There must be a number of different degrees of perfect because after I make changes they say the car runs a ton better. To me perfect can't be improved on.
I can tell you most tuners in the world would be lucky to get a car 70% right. Even then a lot fluke it now and again. 100% accurate there aren't many. And all of them work in F1.
Pretty much any injector works , you just have to make adaptors to raise/lower the fuelrail... or make adaptors for the injectors.
Finding injectors with an angled spray though.. idk i've seen alot of people say they're going for some but i've never heard anything back, most just design their intakes with the injectors at an angle.
I.e :
Also, if you guys can (don't mean to thread jack), please take a look at my thread on a similar topic and let me know what you think. Look at page 2 post #30.
After much disscussion and conferencing we decided on the big boys....a set of FIC 2150cc's.
Fabricating a new fuel rail with -10AN feed and a -6AN return. Figure that will get the job done along with two fuel pumps, both A1000litres per hour. One for the pump gas circuit and the other is built in to the Aeromotive Stealth 15 gallon fuel cell which is secured in the trunk. The fuel cell will run ONLY 110 octane race gas which will be the exclusive fuel run on the track(no meth spray of course).
The change over from pump to race gas will take approximately 15 seconds....open two ball valves and close two other ones.
I am thinking about a button that will give me a meth spray ONLY down the long straight away on each race track....particularly Sebring. I see no reason I cant use a meth spray only once for 10 seconds each lap. Right?
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